Gaining bugs with Innovation etc.

[jeebus]

I think I'm finally done mapping all kinds of card interactions for my rules document (although I probably overlooked something). I've tested some of this in the client, finding that several things work, but there are some bugs.

CORRECT: Gaining an Inherited Estate with a card that checks the types of the gained card
Gainers are Horn of Plenty, Ironworks, Replace and Sculptor. I checked with Ironworks, and partially with Horn of Plenty.

• Gaining Inherited Estate with Capitalism -> Action-Treasure-Victory
• Gaining Inherited Estate, trashing it with Watchtower* -> Victory
• Gaining Inherited Estate(Fortress), trashing it with Watchtower -> Action-Victory

In the following we play the gained card with Innovation:

• Gaining Inherited Estate(self-trasher)* -> Victory (tested with Embargo)
• Gaining Inherited Estate(Experiment) -> Victory
• Gaining BoM--Victory -> Action-Victory
• Gaining BoM--Mill with Capitalism -> Action-Treasure-Victory
• Gaining BoM--Island -> Action (should work the same with Distant Lands, not tested)
• Gaining BoM--self-trasher -> Action (not tested)

*Should be Action-Victory while Possessed, not tested

CORRECT: Messenger - gaining
Relevant with Innovation and BoM. I buy a Messenger and choose to gain a (cost-reduced) Band of Misfits, immediately playing it (via Innovation) as a Village. The other players gain a Village.
ADDED: If I play it as card that is removed from play (like Island), it's just a BoM when Messenger checks it, so the other players gain a BoM.

INCORRECT: Duplicate when-gain
Relevant with Innovation and BoM. I gain a Band of Misfits and immediately play it (via Innovation) as a Village. Then I call Duplicate to gain a copy of it. I should gain a Village, but gain a BoM.
If I play it as card that is removed from play (like Island), it's just a BoM when Duplicate resolves, so I should gain a BoM.

INCORRECT: Aqueduct when-gain Victory
Gaining Crumbling Castle is already in the bug list, but the same bug applies to Haunted Castle.
There are also several other ways to gain Silver/Gold at the same time as you gain a Victory card (especially with Innovation), and they all fail:

• Gain Cemetery, trash card gaining Silver/Gold (Catacombs, Crumbling Castle, Feodum, Rocks, Sir Vander)
• Gain Cemetery, trash card, react with Market Square
• Inherit Blessed Village, gain Estate, gain Silver/Gold from Boon (either directly or through discarding Tunnel or trashing as above) (not tested)
• Inherit card that gains Silver/Gold on when-gain (Border Village, Skulk, Embassy), gain Estate
• With Innovation, inherit card that gains Silver/Gold on play (many), gain Estate

INCORRECT: Aqueduct when-gain Treasure
With Capitalism, gain a Farmers' Market: 1 VP token is moved from its pile to Aqueduct. THIS IS CORRECT.
However, with Capitalism and Innovation, gain Farmers' Market, playing it. This should allow you to either add a token to the pile or take the tokens (if there are 4) before Aqueduct's when-gain resolves. This fails, since Aqueduct automatically resolves first.

INCORRECT: Basilica when-buy
As far as I can figure out this is only relevant with Innovation. Expected behavior: With something that gains on when-buy (Charm, Farmland, Haggler, Messenger, Stonemason, Talisman), you buy a card, gaining a card that gives $ on play. For instance, buy x with $1 left, gaining and playing Market, now you resolve Basilica's when-buy, getting 2 VP tokens.

You should also be able to spend a Coffers token after buying a card, before resolving Basilica, but only if you are in the first (Treasure-playing) part of your Buy phase, which means that you bought the card from playing Black Market with Scepter or Capitalism. (To clarify, you don't need Innovation.)

INCORRECT: Colonnade when-buy
Relevant with Innovation and BoM. Expected behavior: With something that gains on when-buy (see above), you buy a card, gaining a BoM, playing the BoM as a card you already have in play. Now you resolve Colonnade's when-buy, getting 2 VP tokens.
ADDED: With something that gains on when-buy (see above), you buy a card, gaining a copy of the same card you bought, playing it. Now you resolve Colonnade's when-buy, getting 2 VP tokens.
If you gain & play a card that is removed from play, you should get nothing.

CORRECT: Defiled Shrine when-buy Curse
You reduce the cost of an Action card to $0. You play Charm and then buy a Curse, gaining the Action card, moving 1 VP from its pile to  Defiled Shrine. Now you resolve Defiled Shrine's when-buy, taking all the tokens. This works.

INCORRECT: Defiled Shrine when-gain Action
When you gain a Temple, you correctly get the option of resolving Temple before Defiled Shrine.
But with Innovation, when gaining Farmers' Market or Wild Hunt, Defiled Shrine automatically resolves before you get to play the gained card.
You should also be able to gain a BoM, playing it (via Innovation) as another card either before or after Defiled Shrine resolves. This means you should get the option to move a token from either the BoM pile or the other pile (unless you chose a card that removes itself from play).

All these four Landmarks need to allow you to order their triggered ability with other abilities that trigger at the same time (like Innovation). Defiled Shrine seems to only partially do so.
The Duplicate bug is more mysterious, because the client does let you resolve the abilities in either order.

***

When it comes to allowing the player to spend Coffers, I see that Black Market and Storyteller are mentioned in the bug list, but it also applies to Fortune (in addition to Basilica in rare cases as mentioned above).

[jeebus]

I also tested this, and it worked correctly:
With Innovation, buy Seaway and choose cost-reduced BoM, playing it as a Village. The +1 Buy token is put on Village.

[Ingix]

First a big thanks for writing this all down. I and others tested Innovation interactions of course, but the fact that it allows a BoM to be played immediately thus allowing immediate shape changing escaped me.

I'll think about how to best incorporate this in the known cards bug list.

[Ingix]

There is one part of your article that correctly describes a bug, but is worded misleadingly, it is the part about Colonnade.

In the part about BoM you make it sound like Colonnade compares the gained BoM with something in play, but that isn't true. It compares the *bought card* with something in play (which may be the BoM impersonating the bought card).

But your added description is spot on: You can buy a Village with Talisman in play, play (via Innovation) the copy Talisman provides, then resolve Colonnade to gain 2 VP (which doesn't happen in the online game).

[jeebus]

There is one part of your article that correctly describes a bug, but is worded misleadingly, it is the part about Colonnade.

In the part about BoM you make it sound like Colonnade compares the gained BoM with something in play, but that isn't true. It compares the *bought card* with something in play (which may be the BoM impersonating the bought card).

But your added description is spot on: You can buy a Village with Talisman in play, play (via Innovation) the copy Talisman provides, then resolve Colonnade to gain 2 VP (which doesn't happen in the online game).

Thanks for double-checking my logic! I updated the post. I also added a section on Messenger about choosing a card like Island (tested and works).

Gain on when-buy is very tricky, and has a lot of implications. It means that pretty much any card can be played after you buy a card but before you gain the bought card - and also before you resolve the when-buy of the card you bought, or after! You can for instance buy Masterpiece, gain Woodcutter (via Charm), play it, and have more $ to overpay for the Masterpiece. You can also buy from an Embargoed pile, gain Sea Hag (via Charm or Haggler), and play it to empty the Curses before you gain one from Embargo.

[Ingix]

Again, thanks for the analysis. Some bugs are really strange, most seem to be that certain shortcuts can no longer be taken with Innovation.

[jeebus]

Here is another bug:

With Haggler in play, buy a Gold, gaining a Merchant Guild, playing the Merchant Guild via Innovation. Now you're still resolving when-buy abilities for buying the Gold, so you should be able to get 1 Coffers. This doesn't work.

Instead of Haggler, it could be Charm, Farmland, Messenger, Stonemason, Talisman.
Instead of Merchant Guild, it could be Goons, Haggler, Hoard, Talisman.

I tested this after playing Haggler:
Buying x, gaining&playing Haggler. This worked.
Buying x, gaining&playing Black Market, playing Talisman did not work. (I didn't gain a copy of x.)
Buying Duchy, gaining&playing Black Market, playing Hoard did not work. (I didn't gain a Gold.)
I didn't test with Goons, but I assume it's like Merchant Guild, it won't work.

[jeebus]

Here is one more bug:

With Haggler in play, buy Mint, gaining&playing x, then resolve the Mint trashing. X should be trashed if it's a Treasure, but it stays in play. All the other Treasures are trashed. X could be a Crown, a Capitalism-changed Action, or a normal Treasure played from your hand via gaining&playing Black Market/Storyteller/Crown.

Edit: If you play several Treasures with Black Market, neither of them are trashed. Only the Treasures that were originally in play when you bought the Mint.

What I wanted to test, which is not possible because of the Mint bug, was this:
With Haggler in play, buy Mint, gaining&playing Haggler (cost-reduced), then resolve the Mint trashing. Now the 2nd Haggler, which was not there originally, is not there now anymore either, but it triggered so you should still be able to gain another cheaper card than the Mint.

[jeebus]

Donald has now said that a "while this is in play" entering play in a trigger window, will always make it trigger, no matter when it leaves play again.

So: Inherit Procession; gain Estate, playing it via Innovation, playing Groundskeeper from your hand (trashing it); get +1 VP token for gaining the Estate. This actually works.

Ok, what about when-buy?

Testing now, I'm realizing that several things that didn't work yesterday, now work. I guess Steff is working on this stuff.

With Haggler in play, buy x, gaining y, playing y via Innovation - this now triggers y's when-buy ability.
I tested for y being Goons, Merchant Guild, Hoard and Talisman (the latter two via gaining Black Market).

Gaining Throne Room instead and playing y from hand - also works.

Gaining Procession instead and playing y from hand (trashing it) - also works. In the case of Hoard and Talisman, I trashed them with Counterfeit.

The place in the log where you get +1 Coffers (from Merchant Guild) or +1 VP token (from Goons) is totally wrong, but maybe that's just a display problem? Since none of those are optional, or giving you a choice that could depend on other stuff happening first (like Talisman or Haggler), it doesn't matter in practice. At least with current cards and as far as I can figure out.

[jeebus]

Since almost none of this was added to the known card bugs, I'm wondering how much of it has been fixed. It seems like some stuff was fixed while I was still checking (as noted above). But I have no idea about the rest. Any chance of getting some information about this?

[jeebus]

I'll think about how to best incorporate this in the known cards bug list.

Any reason these bugs haven't been added to the list? Not all of them are Innovation related (if that has anything to do with it). Not all of them are BoM related either. And most of them haven't been fixed.

[Ingix]

The answer is simple: I forgot  :(

[Ingix]

I've added the bugs to the bug list. All of them still existed.

Thanks again for taking your time to test and document that as thouroughly as you did!

[jeebus]

I also reported some bugs after the intial post.

The first one was fixed.

The second one is not fixed. This is Mint/Innovation. I tried now, game 30743535, turn 9. Here I actually had 3 when-buy abilities: Mint, Haggler and Charm. I don't get to choose Mint before any of the others, which is also a bug. The important thing is the gaining of Crown (from Charm). The Crown is played via Innovation. In the end Mint resolves, but the Crown is not trashed. Crown should be trashed. And this is why you should be able to resolve Mint first.

The third post reports of interactions that work, although it's displayed in the wrong place in the log.

[jeebus]

The Mint bugs are still not in the bug list...