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Author Topic: Timing of Embassy, Ill-Gotten Gains and Lost City  (Read 490 times)

Offline jeebus

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Timing of Embassy, Ill-Gotten Gains and Lost City
« on: 28 January 2019, 01:36:27 AM »
For completeness I'm reporting this bug. I'm not going to say that this needs be fixed (certainly not with a high priority), but it's not correct, so I'm reporting it, as accurately as I can.

There are some triggered abilities that affect "each other player". They are:
when-gain: Embassy, Haunted Castle, Ill-Gotten Gains, Lost City
when-buy: Messenger, Noble Brigand

When you trigger those, you get to order them with any other ability that trigger at the same time. For instance if you buy Noble Brigand with an Embargo token on the pile, you decide which to do first.

Currently this seems to works correctly with Haunted Castle, Messenger and Noble Brigand, but not with the others. It's probably because when you resolve these three cards, you also have to do something. For the others (Embassy, Ill-Gotten Gains and Lost City), only the other players do something. But they should all work the same; you should be able to use Watchtower or Innovation etc. before or after the other players are affected. Currently you only get the option before.

So these abilities are probably designated in the client as only "belonging" to the other players and therefore are automatically resolved after "your" abilities. Every ability has to "belong" to one player though, in terms of figuring out the timing. (First the active player does all his abilities, ordering them, then the next player, etc.) I don't think it's possible with current cards that two of these abilities can trigger at the same time. If there were it would create a problem in the client, because there would be nobody to decide which to resolve first. For instance if you gain Embassy and also have a theoretical "While this is in play, when you gain a card, each other player gains a Curse". In this case it becomes obvious that the active player has to decide.


Offline jeebus

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Re: Timing of Embassy, Ill-Gotten Gains and Lost City
« Reply #1 on: 24 March 2020, 06:43:15 PM »
I don't know if this bug has been corrected, but it became more relevant with Menagerie.

You can gain Embassy, Ill-Gotten Gains or Lost City and react with Sheepdog using Way of the Mouse on an "each other player" attack. Let's say the Way of the Mouse card is Urchin, and you have a Sheepdog in hand, and you gain Lost City. Now it matters whether you play the Sheepdog (+ Urchin via Mouse) first or the other players draw for Lost City first. And that's your decision.

Offline Ingix

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Re: Timing of Embassy, Ill-Gotten Gains and Lost City
« Reply #2 on: 24 March 2020, 09:37:26 PM »
Thanks for looking into this. I tested the interactions right now.

Lost City is incorrect both from your view and my view: When I gain it (on my turn), it let's my opponent draw a card before I can handle my triggers (Changeling in my tests).

For the others, they still work as you described in your first post, but I think they work correctly.

Messenger, Noble Brigand and Haunted Castle have a triggered ability that deals both with the player buying/gaining the card an others. They are explicitely linked for Messenger and Noble Brigand; for Haunted Castle the link is arguebly weak.

For Embassy, Ill-Gotten Gains and (if it is corrected) Lost City, the effects are uncoupled, so (as you wrote), they are not one triggered effect belonging to the gaining player, but several triggered effects belonging to "each other player".

Obviously, this is difference of interpretation, of the triggered abilities rules.

Offline jeebus

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Re: Timing of Embassy, Ill-Gotten Gains and Lost City
« Reply #3 on: 24 March 2020, 10:28:24 PM »
Maybe I'm not understanding you completely.

The thing with Embassy, Ill-Gotten Gains and Lost City, is that the "each other player" effect should belong to the player who gained the card. That player should get to order any other when-gain stuff (like Reactions) happening at the same time. So with Embassy and Watchtower: I choose which happens first: "I topdeck Embassy with Watchtower" or "each other player gains a Silver". It's exactly like the Lost City example.

EDIT: Ok, I see what you're saying now. You're saying that Embassy and IGG work correctly even though they don't work as I described above. But then why are you reading Lost City differently?

In any case, this is how "each other player" effects work. I can look for the ruling. But as I explained in my first post with the hypothetical example, it makes no sense that it's the other way. Also, this is the way we know who gets to order the gaining when you buy a card with Haggler in play and opponent's Swamp Hag in effect.

Offline Ingix

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Re: Timing of Embassy, Ill-Gotten Gains and Lost City
« Reply #4 on: 24 March 2020, 11:06:24 PM »
The thing with Embassy, Ill-Gotten Gains and Lost City, is that the "each other player" effect should belong to the player who gained the card.

And this is where we differ, I think they should belong to the other players and ordered by them.

Quote
EDIT: Ok, I see what you're saying now. You're saying that Embassy and IGG work correctly even though they don't work as I described above. But then why are you reading Lost City differently?

I'm reading Lost City the same as Embassy/IGG, that means different from you. I just noted that the online implementation is both different from your and my interpretation (while Embassy/IGG are implemented according to my understanding).

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Also, this is the way we know who gets to order the gaining when you buy a card with Haggler in play and opponent's Swamp Hag in effect.

So in this example, always Haggler first and Swamp Hag second, or buying player decides (or something else)? I think gaining player decides, which also seems to go contrary to how I interpret your model.

Offline jeebus

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Re: Timing of Embassy, Ill-Gotten Gains and Lost City
« Reply #5 on: 24 March 2020, 11:07:14 PM »
See here: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19913.msg812205#msg812205
You yourself have an example with Embassy that is correct, but that is apparently not how it works in the client.

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How Changeling interacts with the Embassy gains is more complicated. Once for example player B has gained an Embassy, now 2 things have triggered:
1) the mandatory Silver gain for the other players by Embassy itself, and
2) the optional exchange for a Changeling.

Both triggers 'belong' to player B, so they get to decide which order they are executed in. They can choose to do 2) before 1) and thus exchange the Embassy for a Changeling before player A (and later C and D) gain their Silvers.

A few posts later in that thread, I talk about the "each other player" rule.

Offline jeebus

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Re: Timing of Embassy, Ill-Gotten Gains and Lost City
« Reply #6 on: 24 March 2020, 11:15:39 PM »
Lost City is incorrect both from your view and my view: When I gain it (on my turn), it let's my opponent draw a card before I can handle my triggers (Changeling in my tests).
That is incorrect from my view, yes. But how would it be correct from your view?

The thing with Embassy, Ill-Gotten Gains and Lost City, is that the "each other player" effect should belong to the player who gained the card.
And this is where we differ, I think they should belong to the other players and ordered by them.
What is it that should be ordered? With Embassy, are you saying that the other players should decide if you get to use Watchtower or Innovation before they gain Silvers? Should they take a vote to decide this? Or are you talking about the Silver gainings? They obviously go in turn order, there is no decision.

Quote
Also, this is the way we know who gets to order the gaining when you buy a card with Haggler in play and opponent's Swamp Hag in effect.
So in this example, always Haggler first and Swamp Hag second, or buying player decides (or something else)? I think gaining player decides, which also seems to go contrary to how I interpret your model.
Buying player decides. This is not an "each other player" effect. So mentioning this was a bit misleading from me. It's connected to the greater question of who abilities belong to, but it's complicated. I can get back to this if necessary.

I think you're failing to understand my first post. Maybe you can check the hypothetical example I wrote, and ask if you don't get why it shows that "each other player" has to belong to the player being addressed by the card.

Offline Ingix

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Re: Timing of Embassy, Ill-Gotten Gains and Lost City
« Reply #7 on: 24 March 2020, 11:22:00 PM »
See here: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19913.msg812205#msg812205
You yourself have an example with Embassy that is correct, but that is apparently not how it works in the client.

Quote
How Changeling interacts with the Embassy gains is more complicated. Once for example player B has gained an Embassy, now 2 things have triggered:
1) the mandatory Silver gain for the other players by Embassy itself, and
2) the optional exchange for a Changeling.

Both triggers 'belong' to player B, so they get to decide which order they are executed in. They can choose to do 2) before 1) and thus exchange the Embassy for a Changeling before player A (and later C and D) gain their Silvers.

A few posts later in that thread, I talk about the "each other player" rule.

In my current understanding, that part of my answer was wrong.

Offline jeebus

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Re: Timing of Embassy, Ill-Gotten Gains and Lost City
« Reply #8 on: 24 March 2020, 11:31:18 PM »

Offline Ingix

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Re: Timing of Embassy, Ill-Gotten Gains and Lost City
« Reply #9 on: 24 March 2020, 11:50:58 PM »
The thing with Embassy, Ill-Gotten Gains and Lost City, is that the "each other player" effect should belong to the player who gained the card.
And this is where we differ, I think they should belong to the other players and ordered by them.
What is it that should be ordered? With Embassy, are you saying that the other players should decide if you get to use Watchtower or Innovation before they gain Silvers? Should they take a vote to decide this? Or are you talking about the Silver gainings? They obviously go in turn order, there is no decision.

In a 3 player game, player A gaines an Embassy while he has Duplicate on the Tavern mat, and intends to call it.

You argue that player A decides the order of "call Duplicate" and "distribute Silvers", which both belong to him (which is the reason why player A can order them).

I argue that to player A belongs only the "call Duplicate" effect. To player B belongs a "gain Silver" effect and to player C also belongs a "gain Silver" effect. All are triggered effects from that Embassy gain. If that's all the triggered abilities that exist, then A will do their first, calling the Duplicate, gaining another Embassy and getting some more triggered stuff that's not under discussion now. After that is done, B does their stuff (gain Silver) and C does their stuff (gain Silver).

My "ordered by them" comment means that if there are other effects for B or C triggering from A gaining that Embassy, they can order those effects with the "gain Silver" effect they get from the Embassy itself. It just happens that currently there are no such effects: Embassy is not a Victory card, so Black Cat can't trigger for B/C, and it's also not multi-type, so Falconer can't trigger either.

I think you're failing to understand my first post. Maybe you can check the example I wrote, and ask if you don't get why it shows that "each other player" has to belong to the player being addressed by the card.

Your first post doesn't "show" anything. It states how you think it works. With your theoretical card, there is no problem in my model: Each player other player gets to decide in which order they gain a Silver and a Curse, then the next "other" player is making the same decision.


Offline Ingix

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Re: Timing of Embassy, Ill-Gotten Gains and Lost City
« Reply #10 on: 24 March 2020, 11:56:09 PM »

Offline jeebus

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Re: Timing of Embassy, Ill-Gotten Gains and Lost City
« Reply #11 on: 25 March 2020, 01:23:10 AM »
That's not how abilities work in Dominion. You can't interweave two abilities that trigger at the same time. For instance, if you gain a Death Cart, both Death Cart and Watchtower (for gaining Death Cart) trigger, but you can't resolve Watchtower inbetween gaining two Ruins - you can't gain a Ruins, topdeck Deathcart, then gain another Ruins. Likewise, with two abilities that say "each other player", you have to resolve one of them completely before resolving the other. This is why my example shows the problem with your view.

With Duplicate and Embassy it's the same: There are only two abilities, Duplicate and Embassy. One has to come first. If Embassy said "each player" (so that you also gained a Silver), you couldn't call Duplicate on the Embassy in the middle of handing out Silvers.

Here's Donald explaining exactly this when it comes to Noble Brigand/Embargo: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=4535.msg101911#msg101911

Your view would mean the that if you gain Haunted Castle, I could play Black Cat after you gain a Gold but before I topdeck. That's in the middle of resolving Haunted Castle and obviously wrong. (Black Cat triggers off you gaining Haunted Castle, not you gaining Gold.)

This rule is what we have to explain these interactions, and Donald has confirmed it. I didn't write that it was my personal theory. It's a bit frustrating that you're doubting it. You can go do the research and find out why this rule exists. If you want to propose an alternate rule that achieves the desired results for these interactions, you can formulate it and propose it to Donald.

Offline Ingix

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Re: Timing of Embassy, Ill-Gotten Gains and Lost City
« Reply #12 on: 25 March 2020, 10:19:06 AM »
Based on the Road Network/Haunted Castle thread , you are right.

Donald X. specifically said:

Quote
But we may have to order things that themselves need ordering. Let's say I have "When you buy a Silver, each other player gains a Curse" and "When you buy a Silver, each other player gains a Copper"; do they each gain a Curse and then a Copper, or do I pick which to do first and then they go around?

I think it has to be that somehow we first order those two things, Curses or Coppers first, and then resolve them and that hands out cards in turn order as normal. That's my ruling on that corner of this. When you've got "when x, do y," you first order that relative to other "when x," and then do all of one y, then all of the next y.

That goes against my model that I explained above.

You wrote in that thread a list of how different types of effects would be ordered by different players, which Donald X. agreed to.

Quote
(1) When you do A, do B - you (Haggler)
(2) When you do A, do B, and each other player does C - you (Noble Brigand, Haunted Castle)
(3) When you do A, each other player does B - you (Ill-Gotten Gains)
(4) When another player does A, they do B - the other player (Swamp Hag)
(5) When another player does A, you do B - you (Road Network)
(6) When another player does A, you may do B - you (Moat)
(7) When a player does A, they do B - the player (Embargo, Duchess)

We were disagreeing on (3), where I thought that it actually splits up and each "does B" effect gets its own trigger, order by the respective player.

Thanks for pointing me in the direction of that thread!

Offline Stef

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Re: Timing of Embassy, Ill-Gotten Gains and Lost City
« Reply #13 on: 25 March 2020, 02:05:40 PM »
Before I give other answers, I should say I didn't read the complete thread carefully.

Jeebus, you made a couple of "these" posts and I feel like I should address them in general.
"these" posts are posts describing some ability that should be order-able but isn't.

1. Thanks for taking the time to dig those cases up.
2. When creating these cards, I had to make some sort of decision. I could a) make the cards just do something, b) create an ability for it with the property auto-resolve, or c) create properly order-able ability.
Sometimes I went for 2a where I would make a different choice today. This could be for various reasons. First of all 2a is significantly less work. For me, but also for translators. Especially if I could not come up with any case at the time where it would matter, I might have chosen for that approach. I whole category I had to get back to later on - and some still should - are the Landmarks from Empires.
Another cost of 2c is that people have to click more. If the scenario where it matters is extremely obscure and the scenario where they have to click on something most regular players wonder about what it does - this is not ideal.
A solution that is available now but wasn't always - and is again more work - is to then get rid of these extra clicks with an autoplay.

3. For the future, when reporting them, I would say you don't need to go into a lot of detail about possible consequences. A message like "Ill gotten gains - handing out curses - currently I can't order it but I should" would suffice for me to know what to fix. If I respond with a "please give me a scenario where it matters" you can still post it.

Offline jeebus

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Re: Timing of Embassy, Ill-Gotten Gains and Lost City
« Reply #14 on: 25 March 2020, 07:34:26 PM »
Stef, thanks for your explanation. "These" posts from me before have been mostly about Band of Misfits, Inheritance and Innovation (sometimes with some Landmarks). (Luckily, the Band of Misfits and Inheritance stuff is now moot.) With Innovation specifically, Donald had to make some new rulings because of the questions that came up. I understand that those questions were not asked before I asked them, which I wonder about. It would seem prudent to map that out during/before development, in order to get it right from the start, to whatever extent is possible given the problems you outline. I have never been asked if I would be available, for instance.

When it comes to the topic of this thread, it's a bit different, because the actual underlying rule was ill-defined until January last year. Donald knew how the cards interacted, but the rule was not well defined. Also, as you say, the effect of the missing stuff in the client was marginal, at least until now.

Ultimately, whatever you deem should reasonably be fixed is of course up to you. I just report it (and in this case got a bit frustrated that I was not believed). Of course, it's nice if you or Ingix tell me that it will be fixed at some point or it won't be fixed.

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Way of the Mouse seems to create more Innovation-like craziness, like gain Death Cart and play Marauder (via Sheepdog/Mouse) before you gain the second Ruins. I don't know how you've handled this or even if it's something you want to include in the client.