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Author Topic: Treasure Map + Remake  (Read 728 times)

Offline josh bornstein

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Treasure Map + Remake
« on: 24 July 2019, 05:01:26 PM »
28955966, Turn 11

I had 2 Treasure Maps in my hand, and Remake.  I first tried to use Remake to trash the two TMs, to get the 4-gold payout.  But it didn't work.  I can't figure out what language in TMap was violated by this move.  Is this a bug?  Or just some subtlety of T. Map that I missed?  (I then used Undo, and got the gold by the more common method of playing the T Map and then trashing the second one in my hand.)

Offline Rabid

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Re: Treasure Map + Remake
« Reply #1 on: 24 July 2019, 07:32:25 PM »
You need to play treasure map, not remake.

Offline josh bornstein

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Re: Treasure Map + Remake
« Reply #2 on: 24 July 2019, 09:27:31 PM »
Rabid,
Yes, but *why* ???   :)

When you use Remake to trash T. Map, can you explain why it does not trigger the auto-trash-of-second-TM effect?  (Same question re using Remodel, Upgrade, Chapel et al to trash that first of two T. Maps) 

Offline dane

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Re: Treasure Map + Remake
« Reply #3 on: 24 July 2019, 11:23:16 PM »
Because the instructions on a card are only executed when you play the card.  Presumably you wouldn't expect to draw three cards if you trashed a Smithy with Remake?

Offline Ingix

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Re: Treasure Map + Remake
« Reply #4 on: 24 July 2019, 11:25:59 PM »
Your are making a common mistake. The cause for Treasure Map giving you Gold is not that you (by whatever means) trash 1, 2 or more Treasure Maps. You could trash 4 with Chapel, and nothing more would happen than that they are now in the trash.

The cause for Treasure Map giving you Gold is that it says so on the card, in a place not below any divinding line. For an Action (or Treasure or Night) card that means that this text is relevant only at one time: When the card is played. As Rabid said, you didn't play Treasure Map, so nothing on its text is relevant to the situation.

To see how cards that work like you think Treasure Map works are worded, look at Cultist: http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Cultist

Cultist has a dividing line, under which the text is "When you trash this, +3 Cards." Notice the difference to "Trash this." Cultist talks about an effect triggered by itself being trashed. That effect isn't interested why or how it was trashed.


Offline josh bornstein

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Re: Treasure Map + Remake
« Reply #5 on: 25 July 2019, 12:20:31 AM »
Thanks Ingix,
As usual, your responses are quite instructive.  And your explanation makes sense.  I suspect that the current language is confusing to many people.  If I were writing it, I'd add, to the beginning of the card's text, "When you play this, trash this and . . ."  That would remove any confusion.  But, like several of the more-opaque Dominion cards: Once you know, you know forever.  :)

(The trashing Smithy example given by another poster seems really off-point.  Nothing in the Smithy text mentions trashing at all, so there'd be no reason at all why anyone would believe that trashing it would somehow trigger its card-draw.)

Offline Ingix

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Re: Treasure Map + Remake
« Reply #6 on: 25 July 2019, 10:50:20 AM »
Notice that the treasure cards that give a variable amount of money (Diadem, Philospoher's Stone), or do something that's not really about giving money (Horn of Plenty) start with "When you play this", because it is unusual for a treasure to have anything to execute when it's played, usually you just look at the big printed coin amount on it.

The rulebook says this about playing Action cards:

Quote from: 2E base set rulebook
Playing an Action card has three steps: announcing it; moving it to the "in play" area - the table space in front of you; and following the instructions on it, in order, top to bottom. If the card has a dividing line (e.g. Moat), you stop there; instructions below the line happen at some other time (indicated).

For playing treasure the description is simpler:

Quote from:  2E base set rulebook
You play one by moving it to the "in play" area; you probably will not announce your Treasures, though you can if you want. The Treasures have no text, just a big coin with a number on it.

So for Treasures the rulebook says they have no text, so the "When you play this" text was put on the ones that actually do have text. For Action cards the assumption is that of course they'll do something when you play them (othwiser why bother to get them, even the Ruins have a marginal effect), so the "When you play this" is left out and put into the rules, as seen above.