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Author Topic: Can we have variants to the "3 piles empty=game over" rule?  (Read 856 times)

Offline Pizzaelemblast

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Re: Can we have variants to the "3 piles empty=game over" rule?
« Reply #15 on: 20 August 2019, 07:34:38 PM »
Oh I've seen this on other game forums: "There's so many more important things that need to be implemented!" then link to a list of things that have already been implemented or don't relate to gameplay.

(cross-outs have already been implemented)

Top priorities in 2017:

Add retrievable gamelogs, rating, leaderboard
Finish implementing cards
Improving AI
Adding Campaigns
Adding German, Russian and Japanese support
Card animations: animating all card moves
Expanding on friend list
Create an IOS and Android app
Adding features for Kingdom selection, e.g. to help new players learn cards gradually
Adding tournament support (very well supported on discord)
Further improvements on AI
Offline client
Smart timing rules
Autoplay features
Add logsearch

Stuff like retrievable gamelogs and an offline client... I can't think of the perfect word for it but it would be something like "interface expansion". All of that shouldn't just be behind the issue of quick non-games, and improving the level of strategy, but behind anything gameplay related.

Offline Pizzaelemblast

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Re: Can we have variants to the "3 piles empty=game over" rule?
« Reply #16 on: 21 August 2019, 12:58:20 PM »
The earlier sets were just more about deckbuilding, and less about 'whoops, game over'.

And yeah this forum is just a whole lot of high-ranking experts who have something against growing the appeal/customer base of the game. Maybe if it wasn't for all those 'whoops, game over' games vs less experienced players their rank would drop or something.

They don't think from the point of view of someone trying the game out, would not expect developers and designers to think the same way.

Offline Ingix

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Re: Can we have variants to the "3 piles empty=game over" rule?
« Reply #17 on: 21 August 2019, 04:07:30 PM »
The forum is at the momet a slow-burner, nothing much hapening from day to day. I have no idea if mostly high level players lurk here, or who does. Usually I would assume that engaged players would look in here semi-regularly. Players of all skill levels can be engaged, maybe there is some overrepresentation of experienced, good players, simply because if you loose constantly, you might not play much more.

Pizzaelemblast, you made some good points about a variante that, in your opinion, would improve the game.

However, this online game is closely linked to the IRL game, which it does not control. This is a blessing (game is already familiar to many people) and a curse (no way to generate itself new content, like an expansion).

And to be frank, once you argue
Quote
And yeah this forum is just a whole lot of high-ranking experts who have something against growing the appeal/customer base of the game

in the context of your proposal to include a variant, you have left the way of a reasonable argument, IMO.

I don't deny that "growing the appeal/customer base of the game" is a worthy goal, but I totally deny that your variant is going to be any significant part of that.

Offline jeebus

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Re: Can we have variants to the "3 piles empty=game over" rule?
« Reply #18 on: 21 August 2019, 04:24:01 PM »
Half the items you crossed out are not done.

Card animations - still not complete and I don't think it has been worked on since the list was made in 2017
Expanding on friend list - not sure what this refers to, but it doesn't seem like much has changed since 2017
Create an IOS and Android app - I don't think these exist, do they?
Adding features for Kingdom selection, e.g. to help new players learn cards gradually - Is this done?
Adding tournament support - not done in the client, which is the point

Then there are many important things that many of us have been asking for from the start, but are not on that list. Like not having to use the log to play the game(!).

Offline Pizzaelemblast

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Re: Can we have variants to the "3 piles empty=game over" rule?
« Reply #19 on: 21 August 2019, 07:57:28 PM »
Ingix, I just don't see any other reason for ppl to oppose something that would be optional, not forced upon them. Dominion has always been a highly customizable game. With the tabletop game, there is so much variability depending on what expansions you have. And now on the client we can ban cards and create custom kingdom setups. So seeing how these options have been fine, if specific people had opposed them, you probably would have said they were against 'growing the appeal of the game'. Very much the same if you're going to oppose my idea for a variant, which would only be optional and totally would make the game fit better with how the early sets were designed.

Perhaps I am exaggerating to say that this forum is all high-ranking experienced players, but I can at least say that genuinely inexperienced players are not gonna be highly represented here. That's just the nature of a game forum, people don't feel comfortable making posts on them if they're inexperienced players. And it's the inexperienced players who really suffer from the downsides of the 3-pile rule, in today's Dominion with tons of powerful cards. We've all seen inexperienced players often who just completely don't realize the game's about end. I see it happen a lot, sometimes newer players play turn upon turn upon turn, not noticing at all that they could've just won by depleting the last pile. And I see them leave quickly, one can assume frustrated, when someone uses the 3-pile rule to get a tricky win against them and they were quite clueless.

Offline Pizzaelemblast

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Re: Can we have variants to the "3 piles empty=game over" rule?
« Reply #20 on: 21 August 2019, 08:20:15 PM »
About the development list from 2017, jeebus:

Card animations - I'm not sure what this is or what it would add
Expanding on friend list - I agree, not sure what it refers to, and I don't see a need
Create an IOS and Android app - I have played on my cellphone before. So it's Android friendly, though perhaps
                               that's not the same as an app
Adding features for Kingdom selection, e.g. to help new players learn cards gradually - This was just recently done,
                               with the cardlists feature, plus the familiar cards feature has existed for a while
Adding tournament support - I don't think it's highly needed in the client, since it's being done well on discord

Are you saying you'd want an option to turn the log off entirely? I guess for those who want it, I see that as decently important thing at this stage, unlike the stuff on the outdated list. Personally I don't find much lacking in the client at this point. The only thing I'd want besides what this thread is about is better notification when an opponent trashes one of your cards, like through swindler. I wish it made a unique sound or was written in the log in a color that really stands out. That's the only other improvement I've felt need for and otherwise I think the client is great.

Offline daavor

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Re: Can we have variants to the "3 piles empty=game over" rule?
« Reply #21 on: 21 August 2019, 10:04:28 PM »
I mean, basically you've said "I don't get why anyone wouldn't agree with me, therefore yall must be high level players hoping the game doesn't do well commercially". That's like, just not a good faith engagement with the people who disagree with you. Have you considered that maybe people genuinely think this aspect adds more strategic depth, interest and fun to the game than you do?


Offline jeebus

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Re: Can we have variants to the "3 piles empty=game over" rule?
« Reply #22 on: 21 August 2019, 10:42:21 PM »
There has been so much written about this stuff (before people starting giving up that it ever would be implementet), so I suggest you start looking at some of the old feature requests. There are a lot of actions and events that are not animated, you only understand what the hell happened by checking the log. (Your idea about coloring trashed cards in the log is just a remedy which would not be needed if animations were fully implemented.) And clicking in the log is a horrible idea. The log should be for information only, like a... "log". These things do not kill the experience for experienced players, but they are very serious when it comes to new players. Another important thing missing is the option to search for and retrieve text logs without starting a new game against a bot.

Offline Ingix

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Re: Can we have variants to the "3 piles empty=game over" rule?
« Reply #23 on: 22 August 2019, 12:40:57 AM »
Pizzaelemblast, what your posts come down (to me) is that you wonder why nobody is implementing your idea, when this would be a relatively short endavour and (as you said) optional.

The reality is that lots of proposals for various enhancements have been made, you also looked at the one posted by the developer himself. So, one kind of reaction to your wonder would be "Get in the line for all the people who proposed changes, at the back."

Another fact is that there is only one developer, who has help from a very few number of people when it comes to actually writing code for the client (aka what runs in your web browser). Even something that is easy needs to be done, and it always is more complicated than one thinks.

Third, while in theory an option is just an option and doesn't need to be taken, to many options are bad because nobody can at a glance understand them all and how they interact. If variants are implemented, then it would not make sense to only have one.

Recently there was a discussion if emptying Provinces should trigger the game end in Colony games. Then there are players who want everybody to have the same number of turns, so the game continues until before the starting player would take their regular turn again. Then there is a subset of those that want to put 'imaginary Provinces' in the Province pile, so in the turns after Provinces were depleted, the other players can buy them as well.

What I want to show is that an idea never exists in isolation, and often has consequences for other things. Even then banned/liked/disliked card lists had to be disregarded for 'base only' automatched games, because banning 25% of all existing cards was deemed to much of an opportunity to game the system.


Offline Pizzaelemblast

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Re: Can we have variants to the "3 piles empty=game over" rule?
« Reply #24 on: 22 August 2019, 01:21:31 AM »
"Have you considered that maybe people genuinely think this aspect adds more strategic depth, interest and fun to the game than you do?"

Of course I have, lmao. I'm actually aware that it's fair for different people to have different preferences about various things, not just even just games.

Which is why I obviously haven't proposed removing the traditional way to play. That's what optional means. You on the other hand, as well as others on this thread, are a blowing a gasket and acting like the sky is falling about someone else, me, having a different preference in the game and, heaven forbid, ask, with admittedly "good points" as you folks said yourself, for the option that I see as better, which would not impede on your experience of the game at all

Daavor Have you considered that maybe someone genuinely thinks 4-pile would add more strategic depth, interest and fun to the game than you do?

Offline Pizzaelemblast

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Re: Can we have variants to the "3 piles empty=game over" rule?
« Reply #25 on: 22 August 2019, 01:46:53 AM »
Jeebus, I wasn't saying coloring the pictures of trashed cards, I was saying the logtext saying swindler or knight, etc., trashed one of your cards, should be in a unique color or in italics. There are many unique colors in the logtext already, but oddly enough there's nothing that really makes that stand out, which would be a big help. Or, alternatively a unique sound plays when the swindler/knight trashes your card. Either playing a sound or having it stand out in the log would be much better than animations, plus would not wear on the servers like animations probably would.

Because, with people sometimes going idle for a while, it's nice to play while also checking out something else in another internet tab or just to look somewhere else as you wait for your opponent. People don't play with their eyes locked on the screen for animations, because there are gonna be pauses when the opponent is thinking or maybe they aren't thinking maybe they went afk for a while, you have no idea how long they will take. So the log or a sound would be much better for this issue. Animations seem to me like not really a way to improve the game, plus a way to make the servers work less well. But I do agree with you that a logsearch capability would be really nice.

Offline Pizzaelemblast

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Re: Can we have variants to the "3 piles empty=game over" rule?
« Reply #26 on: 22 August 2019, 02:28:15 AM »
"Recently there was a discussion if emptying Provinces should trigger the game end in Colony games. Then there are players who want everybody to have the same number of turns, so the game continues until before the starting player would take their regular turn again. Then there is a subset of those that want to put 'imaginary Provinces' in the Province pile, so in the turns after Provinces were depleted, the other players can buy them as well."

First of all, just because you identified that someone else had ideas to improve the game which were bad, does not mean all ideas to improve the game must necessarily be equally bad and get shot down, or sandbagged, or never implemented.

And it's pretty clear, while still a matter of opinion, that these two ideas aren't comparable to mine. There's a huge difference between changing the length of a game (thankfully, when a game just ends by way of cultist pile, ruins pile, and curse pile) vs these ideas, which are just about players griping about the number of points they had at the end of the game. Changing the length of the game adds a longer game experience, it adds more gameplay. It can turn a game that 'wasn't a game' into a game. This affects new players a LOT. But these ideas you're trying to compare to mine are just about modifying who has more VP at the end of what was essentially the same game. This variant would have basically no more gameplay than the original game, it just maybe would be more fair at picking the winner. There might be a bit a less luck in who wins, but there was just the same amount of strategy on the way there. But a game that doesn't get off the ground due to the 3-pile rule does lessen the amount of strategy over the course of the game while it also increases the role of luckily timed hands. You can praise the coolness of different possible outcomes to the puzzle of what to do when the third pile is close, yeah sure you can. But all that coolness would STILL be there when 4-pile is played, it's just that you'll actually have some more time to actually pick other cards and craft other combinations before the game reaches that point.


I also think these aren't sound ideas because 'who went first' doesn't warp the game so strongly. For instance there are also advantages to being player 2 in seeing what player 1 does first and essentially having more time to make your decisions.

But it's even possible that Donald had the people with gripes about the final turn count in mind when he designed the card 'Fleet', or that he shared their viewpoint somewhat. Obviously opinions about what would make the game better do help and deserve to be listened to. I mean the people on this thread opposing my idea even said I have a good point on what I'm proposing. So it's odd why I'm getting such angry blowback. It might speak to just how much 4-pile would improve the game over 3-pile. I've made very clear that it ought to be optional, so I can't understand why you guys are so threatened. Maybe you're afraid because if this was implemented, maybe you think everyone would just start selecting the 4-pile option and then the old version of the game you've  gotten so good at would be harder to find automatches in. Who knows. The way I'd implement it if it were me, would be that if both players were fine with any version, for it to pick randomly between 3-pile and 4-pile. I can't foresee much downside to 4-pile, because these days the cards are so strong on average that the game almost never reaches a tedious state before all 8 provinces are gone (it sometimes would get this way in just the base game). So with all today's expansions, things are far from erring on the opposite side, of the game getting too tedious before it ends if played as 4-pile instead of 3-pile.

Offline Donald X.

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Re: Can we have variants to the "3 piles empty=game over" rule?
« Reply #27 on: 22 August 2019, 03:05:47 AM »
Even so, it looks like Donald might have listened to these people when he designed the card 'Fleet'.
Fleet wasn't me listening to anyone; it was an idea I had and then I tried it out and well you know it was iffy, but some people liked it and there it is. I can go further and say, it was inspired by a similar idea I'd had for Kingdom Builder, the silos in the 4th expansion. Could I do something like that for Dominion? I could and it was Fleet.

Stef isn't going to go over my head here and implement something I say no to. That would not work out for him, and he's no fool. So to get this feature you would need to convince me.

You have not convinced me. We will not be having this feature. IRL feel free to play by whatever variants you want. Online we are only including variants I specifically endorse. The bar is high there.

I rarely check these forums, so if you want to say something where I might read it, I recommend dominionstrategy, where you first posted this thread and I guess thought you could ignore the answer, or discord.

Offline Pizzaelemblast

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Re: Can we have variants to the "3 piles empty=game over" rule?
« Reply #28 on: 22 August 2019, 03:25:11 AM »
Ok, great Donald, have a game with less strategy. Ignore the people on this thread who oddly enough said I have a good point while being against my point (says a lot).

And wow, dude, thanks for shooting some thanks to people who literally gave you free in-depth feedback, whether you agree or not. That's really thoughtful of you to take a resource that you didn't ask them for, and hold it in perspective. Wow.

I also just now checked your reply at http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19847.0, where the first replier was someone telling me it was the wrong forum for this kind of feedback who told me to post it here. Replying to my guesses about the base game, you said,

"The rule was originally there to make sure there's a way to end the game, when Provinces are harder to come by, e.g. in games with Curses and no trashing. It has worked out to be a significant part of play though."

So you've basically confirmed my guess that it wasn't designed for the purpose of dominion as it exists today with all the expansions. The 3-pile rule isn't terrible by any means, but you have confirmed for me that it was designed so that you could definitely end the base game. It wasn't designed with it even in mind that it should be a significant part of play, it just turned out to be. And it's not surprising that it may not be the most optimal for today's game with all expansions. Most repliers on this thread somehow believe that just because they can regurgitate some positive aspect of how the 3-pile puzzle works, that's it's adding so much strategy, that's it's the best of all possible versions of the game, as if it was designed for today's game.

It wasn't designed for today's game, it was designed for the base game, to make sure it could end, and it's really a matter of whether the designer and devs find it worthwhile to go about providing more options.

Offline Megas_Droungarios

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Re: Can we have variants to the "3 piles empty=game over" rule?
« Reply #29 on: 22 August 2019, 03:53:31 AM »
Why?

So, some games are short.  The 3-pile rule is absolutely integral to strategy in 3- and 4-player games, where attention to it, especially if there are curses and/or ruins, provides an advantage over the inattentive, letting one seize a victory early.