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Author Topic: Re: Welcome to the Menagerie preview week March 2nd - 8th  (Read 482 times)

Offline blamelewis

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Re: Welcome to the Menagerie preview week March 2nd - 8th
« on: 05 March 2020, 12:22:44 PM »
Hi,

While I’m loving the new cards and appreciate the chance to try them in the previews, I’ve serious reservations about the interface for Ways.

It seems counter intuitive to use the bottom half of the card - where the description of its normal effect is - to trigger the alternative effect of the Way, I think it makes more sense that the text should do what the text says when clicked on, and the picture be used for the Way.

Thanks for all the hard work with the new cards.
Tim

Offline Ingix

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Re: Re: Welcome to the Menagerie preview week March 2nd - 8th
« Reply #1 on: 05 March 2020, 01:32:30 PM »
Thanks for the feedback!

The button was initially inside the picture. That produced many more misclicks during playtesting than when it was over the text. At least the playtesters seemed to favor clicking in the image area when playing a card, and since playing it "without a Way" is supposed to be the more frequent mode, we kept that.

We'll look at the feedback and see what can be done to accomodate all players.

Offline jeebus

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Re: Re: Welcome to the Menagerie preview week March 2nd - 8th
« Reply #2 on: 05 March 2020, 06:57:31 PM »
That's because in addition to your opponent's Reaction cards, some of your own cards/tokens can cause a "first" effect to happen: The +$1, +1 Buy and +1 Action tokens from Adventures, and Champion from the Page traveller line.

Donald's latest ruling is that Champion's +1 Action happens after resolving the card, not before.

Also note that gaining from Kiln happens before you decide on using the Way. This could even mean that you play the gained copy via Innovation before deciding. Urchin also happens before, so you could play Mercenary via Innovation before deciding. I assume you've taken all that into account.

Offline dane

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Re: Re: Welcome to the Menagerie preview week March 2nd - 8th
« Reply #3 on: 05 March 2020, 07:18:20 PM »
We'll look at the feedback and see what can be done to accomodate all players.
It's possible that some people might even prefer to be prompted every time they play an Action (much as they can opt to be prompted for confirmation for every trash or discard), horrendous though that would be for most people, so maybe an option to do so would be useful.  Based on the number of mistakes I've made in the games I've played so far against Lord Rattington, I might well opt for the extra clicking overhead.

Offline Ingix

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Re: Re: Welcome to the Menagerie preview week March 2nd - 8th
« Reply #4 on: 05 March 2020, 07:48:18 PM »
That's because in addition to your opponent's Reaction cards, some of your own cards/tokens can cause a "first" effect to happen: The +$1, +1 Buy and +1 Action tokens from Adventures, and Champion from the Page traveller line.

Donald's latest ruling is that Champion's +1 Action happens after resolving the card, not before.

No, it isn't any more. Champion's effect is a first effect. This was discussed intesively in preparation for the set's programming, including Donald X.

Also note that gaining from Kiln happens before you decide on using the Way. This could even mean that you play the gained copy via Innovation before deciding. Urchin also happens before, so you could play Mercenary via Innovation before deciding. I assume you've taken all that into account.

Yes (though bugs may still exist). There is no autoplay for this at the moment. Maybe we can figure out a way to not bother the player again when he doesn't gain new information, but then again Urchin triggering may come as a 'surprise' for a not so trained player.

Offline jeebus

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Re: Re: Welcome to the Menagerie preview week March 2nd - 8th
« Reply #5 on: 05 March 2020, 08:02:22 PM »
That's because in addition to your opponent's Reaction cards, some of your own cards/tokens can cause a "first" effect to happen: The +$1, +1 Buy and +1 Action tokens from Adventures, and Champion from the Page traveller line.

Donald's latest ruling is that Champion's +1 Action happens after resolving the card, not before.

No, it isn't any more. Champion's effect is a first effect. This was discussed intesively in preparation for the set's programming, including Donald X.

Oh. Well, his latest public ruling was that it happens after (having originally ruled that it happens before). But I'll take your word for it of course, so that makes your announcement here the new official ruling, I guess. So then can you tell me if the ruling has also changed for Sauna and Merchant? Donald's latest known ruling was that these (along with Champion) don't "secretly" say first. But Champion does now secretly say it, so I guess these could too.

Offline Ingix

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Re: Re: Welcome to the Menagerie preview week March 2nd - 8th
« Reply #6 on: 05 March 2020, 10:41:53 PM »
No, it isn't any more. Champion's effect is a first effect. This was discussed intesively in preparation for the set's programming, including Donald X.

Oh. Well, his latest public ruling was that it happens after (having originally ruled that it happens before). But I'll take your word for it of course, so that makes your announcement here the new official ruling, I guess. So then can you tell me if the ruling has also changed for Sauna and Merchant? Donald's latest known ruling was that these (along with Champion) don't "secretly" say first. But Champion does now secretly say it, so I guess these could too.

AFAIK, Sauna and Merchant are still 'normal' effects that happen after the Silver on-play effect is over.

In my understanding, if Champion was also a normal effect that happens after the playing of an Action card, it would give +2 Actions in aggregate for its own playing (one explicite, one as part of the "For the rest of the game ..." ability.

Before Menagerie, the difference mattered only for Diadem, now it also matters for Snowy Village.

Offline josh bornstein

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Re: Re: Welcome to the Menagerie preview week March 2nd - 8th
« Reply #7 on: 05 March 2020, 11:38:24 PM »
So, Ingix, what is the rule now for Snowy Village + Champion.

Before SV existed; when Champion had been played, there was no limit on Actions played, of course.  And I don't think there was any way to lose that "endless actions" effect.  Does SV now trump this effect?  (Based on the language on both cards, it sure seems to do that.)

Offline jeebus

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Re: Re: Welcome to the Menagerie preview week March 2nd - 8th
« Reply #8 on: 06 March 2020, 12:34:17 AM »
AFAIK, Sauna and Merchant are still 'normal' effects that happen after the Silver on-play effect is over.

In my understanding, if Champion was also a normal effect that happens after the playing of an Action card, it would give +2 Actions in aggregate for its own playing (one explicite, one as part of the "For the rest of the game ..." ability.

Before Menagerie, the difference mattered only for Diadem, now it also matters for Snowy Village.

Well, it depends on how you interpret the timing of "when you play a card" and stuff that happens before you resolve it (like Reactions) and stuff that happens after you resolve it (like Citadel). It makes the most sense that they all trigger when you actually play it, before you resolve it. Otherwise it gets kind of ugly to define and describe. Citadel triggers when "you play an Action card", and does something "after", meaning after you resolve the card.

So to me Champion would also trigger when you play an Action card, but give you +1 Action after you resolve the played card. (Sauna and Merchant would work the same way.) I said the same thing here. So no matter if the +1 Action happened "first" or "after", it would not trigger on its own playing. (But note that it does make a difference when playing a Storyteller that plays a Diadem, and when playing a Snowy Village.)

Offline jeebus

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Re: Welcome to the Menagerie preview week March 2nd - 8th
« Reply #9 on: 07 March 2020, 06:44:37 PM »
Ingix replied the following, which has not been moved from the other thread:


So to me Champion would also trigger when you play an Action card, but give you +1 Action after you resolve the played card. (Sauna and Merchant would work the same way.) I said the same thing here. So no matter if the +1 Action happened "first" or "after", it would not trigger on its own playing. (But note that it does make a difference when playing a Storyteller that plays a Diadem, and when playing a Snowy Village.)

But I think it is established that because Reaction cards exist that are hidden in a player's hand, the game cannot go by the "an effect must have been present at the time of the event in order to trigger" paradigm, because no other player can verify if a given Reaction card was already present in a player's hand at trigger time (Secret Chamber finding Moat example).

So it adopted an "as long as triggers for an event haven't been handled completely and are over, new relevant trigger effects appearing will also trigger" approach . This leads to a Hireling double played by Ghost at start of turn actually giving you twice +1 card that same turn.

So that would mean the "For the rest of the game" ability appearing during Champion's playing is existing and relevant at the time 'normal' "When you play an Actions card" triggers are checked at the end of Champion's resolution.

Offline jeebus

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Re: Welcome to the Menagerie preview week March 2nd - 8th
« Reply #10 on: 07 March 2020, 06:45:02 PM »
So it adopted an "as long as triggers for an event haven't been handled completely and are over, new relevant trigger effects appearing will also trigger" approach . This leads to a Hireling double played by Ghost at start of turn actually giving you twice +1 card that same turn.

So that would mean the "For the rest of the game" ability appearing during Champion's playing is existing and relevant at the time 'normal' "When you play an Actions card" triggers are checked at the end of Champion's resolution.
Your explanation of new abilities triggering is accurate, but it's not relevant to what I was saying. My point was that Champion triggers right when you play an Action card (before you resolve the Action card) but would be resolved after resolving the Action card. This means that when you play it, its own "rest of the game" ability is not triggered. Please take a look at what I wrote again, and also check out the post I linked to in the Strategy Forum.

I can add that this interpretation is in line with how things work in Dominion. First of all, it's certain that an ability can have triggered without being resolved while other abilities are resolved in the meantime. (Talisman and Haggler in play, buy a card. Both trigger, but one is resolved first while the other waits.) Then we can extrapolate this to how abilites set up future effects: Play a Charm, it has a "when you play this" ability (happening right now) which says "the next time you buy a card", which is in the future. It's set up when you play the card, but it happens later.

Enchantress should also be interpreted this way: It triggers when you play an Action card, but is resolved when you would resolve the Action card's play ability. (Lantern and Ways work the same way.) Royal Carriage also triggers on playing an Action card, but is resolved after. I don't really see any other interpretation that makes much sense and is consistent (and I've been working on cataloging the timing in Dominion for a long time).

Offline Ingix

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Re: Re: Welcome to the Menagerie preview week March 2nd - 8th
« Reply #11 on: 08 March 2020, 10:13:46 PM »
So, Ingix, what is the rule now for Snowy Village + Champion.

Before SV existed; when Champion had been played, there was no limit on Actions played, of course.  And I don't think there was any way to lose that "endless actions" effect.  Does SV now trump this effect?  (Based on the language on both cards, it sure seems to do that.)

Yes, Snowy Village trumps Champion. When you play Snowy Village, you will get a last +1 Action from Champion, then the +4 Actions from Snowy Village, then it's over with getting more +Actions this turn. Champion doesn't "work" any more, Villagers are useless, etc. You needs to find ways to play more Actions without using your Action budget. King's Court is a possibility or an Event like Toil.

Offline josh bornstein

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edits, now that previews have ended
« Reply #12 on: 09 March 2020, 12:03:00 PM »
Thanks for running out the previews.  Far fewer bugs than I might have expected, and it looks like a reasonably interesting kingdom.  A few very clever cards.

One suggestion:  Now that previews are over; I would probably get rid of that "check box" for previewing Menagerie cards in the Advanced Settings when creating a table . . . if you leave it up, some people will click on it and wonder why no new cards are ever appearing in their games.   :)

Offline IceHot

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Re: Re: Welcome to the Menagerie preview week March 2nd - 8th
« Reply #13 on: 09 March 2020, 02:23:38 PM »
If I have a Gold Subscription how much will it cost to tac on this set til 2021 (end of current Gold subscription)

Offline Ingix

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Re: Welcome to the Menagerie preview week March 2nd - 8th
« Reply #14 on: 09 March 2020, 08:25:35 PM »
Nothing  ;D

There is a new message when you log into the game stating that Menagerie will be added to all Gold subscribers at time of release, lasting as long as their current Gold subscription lasts.

Offline jeebus

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Re: Welcome to the Menagerie preview week March 2nd - 8th
« Reply #15 on: 10 March 2020, 10:09:17 PM »
Regarding what I wrote above:

My interpretation was wrong, because it would not allow Reactions to behave as expected. This means the rules for what "when you play" means are a bit more complex than I thought. In any case, it means the following:

I was wrong in my possible interpretation regarding Champion (before the new ruling) not triggering on its own playing. All "after" abilities (like Citadel) trigger after the played card is resolved, not before. So Champion needs to be "first" in order to not give you an extra Action when you play it.

The conclusion is that Champion happens "first" (and will apparently say that in new printings), while Sauna and Merchant still happen after.