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Author Topic: Should this undo be granted?  (Read 784 times)

Offline jdsdog10

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Should this undo be granted?
« on: 14 April 2020, 05:12:25 PM »
There are 4 provinces left. Villain is down by 19 with 30 monies and 4 buys on his turn. I on the other hand have a very strong engine, and can easily generate at least 3 provinces.
He has the ability to put out all but 2 golds, leaving him with 24, to buy 2 provinces and enhance the other 2 golds into provinces, thus winning the game. Villain does not realize this at first. He buys 3 provinces, and tanks for 10 seconds or so to decide what to do with 6 monies. Instead of buying a gold, he requests an undo all the way back to beginning of buy. I ask why and he says so he can enhance gold. I deny.

I normally am very lenient with undo's. I tried to put into words why I veto'd, and wasn't able to articulate it well. Something doesn't seem right about going through with several buys on your last turn, and then after seeing your buys leaves you in a very unlikely to win state, reconsider and see if there was anything that you could do differently so to avoid said undesirable state, and then that "post-mortem" allows you to win out-right.

Needless to say, after I veto his undo, I go onto win.

Should this undo have been allowed? Who should have won this game given he bought 3 provinces and requested undos?

Offline SkyHard

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Re: Should this undo be granted?
« Reply #1 on: 14 April 2020, 07:38:39 PM »
I probably would not grant it. I think that undos are there to compensate for the UI misclicks and not to simulate the turn and then backtrack. I think you were right in not granting it.

On the other hand, it is up to every player to grant or refuse undos.

Offline josh bornstein

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Re: Should this undo be granted?
« Reply #2 on: 14 April 2020, 09:00:52 PM »
I would have granted it...b/c I would have granted it in real life.  My personal rule:  If you have not gained any 'new' information (e.g., seen additional cards, seen your next hand, etc.), then I grant any Undo request.

But, on the other hand; you also acted perfectly reasonably.  Missing what to do with an unusual card combination is fairly common in Dominion, and is all part of the learning process.

But, on the other other hand  :), your opponent *did* notice this Enhance/Gold combo, just a few seconds too late.  So . . .

Do you feel guilty now? (If so, then that's a hint that you might have made the wrong call.)  Or are you still convinced that you did nothing wrong? (Which is a hint that you made the right call for you.) Was there a chat conversation during and after your refusal?  Did your opponent smile and say to you, "No big deal.  It was my oversight and therefore my fault."???

p.s.  I've never used Enhance (it hasn't even come up in any of my kingdoms.).  So, I could totally see overlooking that combo the first time I played with it.  >:(  ;D

Offline jdsdog10

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Re: Should this undo be granted?
« Reply #3 on: 15 April 2020, 01:12:30 AM »
Yeah, I think skyhard is right when he said that the purpose of undo's is not to simulate a turn and then backtrack.

To Bornstein - I think that not allowing the undo is perfectly reasonable. I think the question I am really asking is more like is it better for the game as a whole to allow these kinds of undos. Or maybe like which results in being a better sport? Mixed with is this viewed by most players as being a poor sport. Something around there

Anyways, no I don't feel guilty. There was barely any chat other then me asking him why he wants an undo. We went on to play another game, so I assume he understood that it was iffy.

I almost never even consider not granting undo's. The only times I consider are when there are draws and when it's very late game. Otherwise, I like literally don't even stop to consider the reason for it, I just click grant. I think this for the most part is best for the game.

What was different about this is following through with your intended plan, and then only afterward realizing that said plan leaves you in a really bad spot likely to lose. At this point it doesn't seem right to be given another chance to reassess what you did after the consequences are laid out.

But then again, I am biased since it's my win at stake. Which is why I posted.

Offline josh bornstein

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Re: Should this undo be granted?
« Reply #4 on: 15 April 2020, 07:24:46 AM »
Yeah.  I would have done differently.  But as I hope I made clear; both responses are perfectly valid.  And since you and other guy played another match, you clearly did it in a way that did not cause offense.  Like you, my main goal here is to have fun.  I think that's a good thing.  (And I'm glad super-competitive people also are here, even if they and I would not be a great fit for playing a bunch of games together.) 

Water finds its own level.

Offline bluey_the_bear

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Re: Should this undo be granted?
« Reply #5 on: 15 April 2020, 07:09:28 PM »
Firstly, I think it's strange that you are referring to them as a "Villain". It puts a negative light on them before you've even described anything. Something like "opponent" is neutral and more accurate. Throughout this post you make loaded statements and questions.

Secondly, you speak of your "very strong engine" that can generate 3+ provinces a turn. This is a strange statement to make, especially seeing as your opponent has just made $30 and 4 buys. That sounds like a pretty strong deck to me (after all, it can gain 4 provinces!). At any rate, the quality of your two decks is completely irrelevant to the discussion. By including this statement, it makes you sound as though you just think you're better than them.

I would both grant and ask for this undo in a heartbeat. If you actually stop to think about what they want to undo, they want to keep a single gold in their hand to enhance it. They're still planning on buying 3 provinces, they just want to keep a card in hand. There is no information gained from this undo, which is the criterion that most undo-deniers seem to use. It seems highly likely that they just clicked Autoplay treasures. It's happened to me plenty of times where I meant to keep a card in hand but my brain just went on autopilot and clicked "autoplay treasures". In those cases I don't always catch the mistake immediately since I'm trying to not be unbearably slow.

The experience of Dominion is, in my opinion, improved by the ability to undo. In addition to misclicks, allowing undos for straightforward things such as this lets people play the game at a faster pace, without having to painstakingly stop for every card to just to make abosolutely sure that there's no reason they'd ever regret it. If you spectate high level play, you'll see that undos are almost always granted and there's basically never a fuss about it.

This whole anti-undo philosophy really gets on my nerves. People act as though it somehow detracts from the game or makes it less fun or pure or something, and it always seems to come from a perspective of the people asking for undos somehow being weaker or less deserving. People make mistakes, that's why undos exist. Letting your opponent undo a few simple things is just a nice thing to do, and denying it isn't going to make you a better person.

Offline skillwinlucklose

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Re: Should this undo be granted?
« Reply #6 on: 15 April 2020, 11:14:36 PM »
What? You can't refer to someone by their actual player name.  ???
I read it as "villain" not "a villain", bluey_a_bear   ;D :)

Offline josh bornstein

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Re: Should this undo be granted?
« Reply #7 on: 15 April 2020, 11:46:55 PM »
Skill,
Ha!  :) I also had wondered about the use of "Villain."  But, looking back at the OP, it does seem like it was the opponent's username, in which case it is, of course, perfectly fine to use.  It's a pretty funny username to choose, and it probably leads to many humorous misunderstandings.  (I guess we should be grateful that she/he did not pick the username "Cheater" or "Bad Sport" or something like that. LOL)

Offline bluey_the_bear

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Re: Should this undo be granted?
« Reply #8 on: 16 April 2020, 12:00:34 AM »
Oh, oops. My bad. Just ignore that paragraph then.

Offline michaeljb

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Re: Should this undo be granted?
« Reply #9 on: 16 April 2020, 01:19:35 AM »
In poker discussion, "Villain" just means opponent, I assumed OP was using it in that sense.

Offline jdsdog10

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Re: Should this undo be granted?
« Reply #10 on: 17 April 2020, 05:42:03 PM »
Yikes! Lots of judgement from bluey, wasn't expecting that.
As michaeljb pointed out, villain is a super standard term to use when reffering to opponents in hand analysis with poker. I know this terminology (villain and hero) is used in other games too, but didn't realize it was quite so foreign to dominion at this point.
I think that adding how strong our decks are is completely relevant and also critical to the conversation. If our decks weren't strong, then there would be at least a somewhat descent chance for him to get another turn. With strong engines, this is pretty unlikely to happen in a game with 1 province left. In this game there was certainly less than %5. So no, that statement was not arrogant. It was meant to point out that villain was aware of being in dire straits after his buys.

It could have been an "autoplay treasures" accident, but I feel confident this wasn't the case. It wasn't an obvious play. It would have played out differently.

Yes, undo's are super important. Definitely a pet peeve of mine too.
"I almost never even consider not granting undo's. The only times I consider are when there are draws and when it's very late game. Otherwise, I like literally don't even stop to consider the reason for it, I just click grant. I think this for the most part is best for the game."

It's worth noting that I have been on the other side and asking for an undo does not seem right AT ALL. Around this same time, I was in a game where I had bought all provinces to tie game with 6 coins left and 3 buys. I bought a duchy but it was cancelled out by "wolf den". I could just have easily bought 3 estates to win. I'd argue that this is more grey than the other example since 3 estates vs 1 duchy accomplishes the exact same thing in most games at end of match, and it would only have been 1 buy undo. It didn't seem right to request it since I overlooked part of the scoring system; bad strategy on my part. I had the first turn, thus a tie was a loss for me.


Offline dane

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Re: Should this undo be granted?
« Reply #11 on: 18 April 2020, 09:34:54 AM »
One reason that I freely allow undos (that haven't revealed new information) both online and IRL is that given the choice of:
  • My opponent plays quickly through to the point at which they can spot their error, and then requests an undo.
  • My opponent sits for the maximum permitted time working out what their optimum move is.
I prefer the former.  Refusing undos that haven't revealed new information forces the latter.

Offline randomUserName

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Re: Should this undo be granted?
« Reply #12 on: 19 April 2020, 08:36:55 PM »
That undo should have been granted, or at least I would have granted it. You mentioned that after buying Duchy, and wolf den kicking in, asking for undo wasnt a fair request, and you were right, but you are doing an apples to oranges comparison when you bring in the case in question. Your opponent realized a better strategy and wanted to execute the same, few seconds after they made a buy....no new information was revealed, so I fail to understand the reason for denial, when you usually are okay granting undo requests. It seems that you were waiting for them to make one wrong buy and then use that as an argument to deny undo because you knew you could win on next turn. I bet that if you were winning by quite a margin, irrespective of their buys, you would have granted that undo right away. Anyway, as bluey pointed out, if you spec high level games, you will see that the undo request is immediately granted, given no new information was revealed. It makes the game fast as well. I generally just blacklist someone if they are not okay to grant a fair undo, that keep things simple for me.

Offline Gold Subscrptn Chick

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Re: Should this undo be granted?
« Reply #13 on: 19 April 2020, 09:10:19 PM »
There's maybe 5% of the population who NEVER grants undos and maybe another 5% that says "no more" after like 1 undo. It seems you aren't of the former and inconclusive about being in the latter, so I'll assume you're of the 90%. Even within the 90%, how players grant undo varies a lot.

Myself, I 100% request and grant this undo. My rule, like many others have mentioned, is whether new info is revealed in the form of cards drawn. Even then, I would grant undo to drawn cards most of the time if they say they forgot to play a village first. To me, at the end of the day it's ONE game, and as far as things that annoy me about the game, undos are towards the bottom of the list.

Bottom line is, there is NO right answer. You're 100% within reason/ethics/or morals lol to do whatever. Just have fun!

Offline jdsdog10

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Re: Should this undo be granted?
« Reply #14 on: 20 April 2020, 04:14:55 PM »
Randomusername. I definitely see it as very similar in the sense of "I now realize that I can't win after executing my INTENDED plan".

To anyone still following this, let me boil this down to a broader family of question. This is now not about justifying my previous game, but about how undo's should be handled late game.
Let's assume that in a different hypothetical hand, Villain is on his last turn and if he doesn't end the game, Hero will. Villain has different ways he can play out his last turn. One way would give him a 5% chance of victory, another 20%, another 50%, another 80%, and another immediate victory.
Villain, unaware currently of other plans, chooses to go with the 5% plan. After executing he realizes that this leaves him with roughly a 5% chance of victory.
He reconsiders and realizes there was a plan that would give him a better opportunity, and requests undo to go with the 20% plan. After executing he realizes that this leaves him with roughly a 20% chance of victory.
He reconsiders and realizes there was a plan that would give him a better opportunity, and requests undo to go with the 50% plan. After executing he realizes that this leaves him with roughly a 50% chance of victory.
He reconsiders and realizes there was a plan that would give him a better opportunity, and requests undo to go with the 80% plan. After executing he realizes that this leaves him with roughly a 80% chance of victory.
He reconsiders and realizes there was a plan that would give allow him to win immediately. He requests undo and goes on to win outright.

I assume most would agree that something is wrong with villain doing this (but maybe I'm wrong in that assumption). At what point does it become wrong? Should this maybe just be granted once (although that doesn't really seem justifiable)? Is this scenario different if the probabilities changed (such as changing 100% win to 70% win as the upper limit, or maybe even something low like 30%)?
Most people who have responded to this thread make it sound like the following information does not matter: villain only considering other options after he played out his entire buy phase as INTENDED to then realize that the victory counters looks very unfortunate for him winning.