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Author Topic: Looking for suggestions #2  (Read 698 times)

Offline artsfols

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Looking for suggestions #2
« on: 18 May 2020, 10:09:31 PM »
So, after an extensive discussion about how to approach the on-line game, I took the following approach based on the information and suggestions provided to me:
- bought an inexpensive silver subscription,
- played bot games to learn the cards in the expansions available to me,
    (This is done by making a new table in the 'My Table' function, and very quickly pressing 'Add Bot' before an actual player joins in).

So, I'm quite happy doing this, but a new problem presents itself. When will this end?  I have been playing Dominion with cards on and off for a decade, but the number of cards just at the silver level is overwhelming.  I still take 5 minutes or so to study cards before every game.  I don't see myself playing another player for a couple of months yet.

I do know all the mechanics across the expansions - debts, potions, coffers, et cetera.  And the basic card mechanics aren't that difficult to figure out from reading, for the most part.  However, I want to be able to strategize successfully. 


Offline josh bornstein

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Re: Looking for suggestions #2
« Reply #1 on: 18 May 2020, 10:40:38 PM »
First, welcome to the site.  I think you are taking the exact right approach.  (ie, start with the limited cards in Silver, and start with playing games against Lord Rat.)  I think you can play about 5 games in a half-hour against Lord Rat, right?  So, I think, even playing just those few games each day, you will pick up the cards much faster than you give yourself credit for.  After all, at least 75% of the cards are pretty straightforward.  There are cards where the instructions are a bit complicated.  And there are some cards that have unusual interactions with other cards.  But you'll get there faster than you expect.

Once you have the basic understanding of at least most of your cards, you'll be fine to play real opponents.  My advice:  Use The Chat function!  If you find yourself in a game where you do not recognize a card or two, just tell the other person in chat that you need a minute to read the card.  Almost all players remember what they were like when they first started, and they'll be fine with you taking a minute or so at the very beginning, once you have told them your beginner status.  (What irritates people, according to posts at this forum, are players who take a long time thinking about each move, or for many many moves in a game.)  As long as you move reasonably quickly after the starting phase of the game, I think you'll find that 985 of your opponents will be super-friendly.  At least, that's been my experience.

Offline artsfols

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Re: Looking for suggestions #2
« Reply #2 on: 18 May 2020, 11:43:12 PM »
That may be all it takes.  I'm certainly prepared to continue on that basis for a few weeks more. I probably play less than some other people do. 
I'm guessing there are about 3-400 cards to learn at the silver level so that is quite a few.
Lord Rat sures does love the 'jack of all trades' card.
 

Offline kieranmillar

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Re: Looking for suggestions #2
« Reply #3 on: 19 May 2020, 07:43:54 AM »
I'm guessing there are about 3-400 cards to learn at the silver level so that is quite a few.
Silver subscription adds 129 cards to the pool. So 155 including base.

Offline artsfols

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Re: Looking for suggestions #2
« Reply #4 on: 22 May 2020, 06:28:08 PM »
I'm guessing there are about 3-400 cards to learn at the silver level so that is quite a few.
Silver subscription adds 129 cards to the pool. So 155 including base.

Thanks. That doesn't seem as daunting. I did get a higher count than you, just now, but I think that's because I'm getting 'Empires' on approval.  Thankfully, that expires tonight because I don't need it.  I can see why this is done: so that I obtain gradual exposure to expansions outside the silver level.

I've also noticed that from the 'Select Kingdom' and also the 'Familiar' cards screens I can review all the cards.

Offline artsfols

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Re: Looking for suggestions #2
« Reply #5 on: 09 June 2020, 03:02:56 AM »
I have a reasonable handle on the cards in the silver level at this point. 
However, when I go onto the ladder, I'm  just overwhelmed with cards and other things I haven't seen before.  Playing Lord Rat is getting a bit boring, but it appears I'm not ready for prime time either.

YOu would think that at lower levels on the ladder I would meet people at my level, but it appears to not be the case.
Any suggestions?  This game is a lot of fun with a few expansions, but not with all of them.

I don't mind playing other 'silver level' players on open tables, but how do I find them?

Offline Ingix

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Re: Looking for suggestions #2
« Reply #6 on: 09 June 2020, 09:19:43 AM »
Again, playing "at the Silver level" (only cards from this subscription being used) is unfortuntaly not something that's possible at the moment with automatch.

Other players have tried setting up a table of their own with random cards from those expansions and hoping that somebody else joins them.

On the general Dominion discord (https://discord.gg/eyyEvPb) there is a channel #want-to-play where people post when they want to play. That might be a good place to find people who want to play "Silver level", either by looking out what gets posted there, or posting yourself.

It's not optimal, I agree.

Offline Professor Yes

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Re: Looking for suggestions #2
« Reply #7 on: 10 June 2020, 07:41:46 PM »
YOu would think that at lower levels on the ladder I would meet people at my level, but it appears to not be the case.
Any suggestions?

Two things come to mind.  First, check what the min/max opponent ranking range is in your automatch settings.  Idk what you're ranking is, but let's say it's 45... if your automatch range is +/-10 (the default I think), then you're still maybe getting matched against rank 55 players who are going to be *much* better than you.  I'm rank 57 give or take and I enjoy a +/- 6 opponent ranking range.

Second, a player's ranking reflects how many games they win and against what ranking of opponents, right? But due to the nature of online play, this ranking doesn't track exactly with a player's understanding of the game (or skill, as a less-quantifiable quality than "ranking").  For instance, maybe there's some player who understands the game well enough to regularly place at tournaments and if they only ever played online when they were perfectly focused they would easily be rank 60-something; but day-to-day, on the ladder, they are distracted, or drunk, or whatever, and these bad play habits means their ranking is quite a bit lower than it could be. As far as the automatch system can tell, maybe you and this player are the same ranking, but if you have the bad luck to match with this player at a moment in which they are very focused, you'll get trounced because if you control for bad habits around online play, they are the much more skilled player.

Years ago I made the decision to never play before my first coffee and to never play after my third beer and damn if my rating didn't jump 4 points in like two weeks.

Offline artsfols

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Re: Looking for suggestions #2
« Reply #8 on: 12 June 2020, 09:32:51 PM »
Again, playing "at the Silver level" (only cards from this subscription being used) is unfortuntaly not something that's possible at the moment with automatch.

Other players have tried setting up a table of their own with random cards from those expansions and hoping that somebody else joins them.

On the general Dominion discord (https://discord.gg/eyyEvPb) there is a channel #want-to-play where people post when they want to play. That might be a good place to find people who want to play "Silver level", either by looking out what gets posted there, or posting yourself.

It's not optimal, I agree.

A short descriptive line on the 'Table listing' would be fantastic.  Someone could put in, 'silver only' or 'Intrigue + Seaside' or 'Only curse attack cards'.  Wouldn't that be fun?  And I could up my game without being brutalized on the ladder.  You could also show the rank of the host.

Offline artsfols

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Re: Looking for suggestions #2
« Reply #9 on: 12 June 2020, 09:34:31 PM »
YOu would think that at lower levels on the ladder I would meet people at my level, but it appears to not be the case.
Any suggestions?

Two things come to mind.  First, check what the min/max opponent ranking range is in your automatch settings.  Idk what you're ranking is, but let's say it's 45... if your automatch range is +/-10 (the default I think), then you're still maybe getting matched against rank 55 players who are going to be *much* better than you.  I'm rank 57 give or take and I enjoy a +/- 6 opponent ranking range.

Second, a player's ranking reflects how many games they win and against what ranking of opponents, right? But due to the nature of online play, this ranking doesn't track exactly with a player's understanding of the game (or skill, as a less-quantifiable quality than "ranking").  For instance, maybe there's some player who understands the game well enough to regularly place at tournaments and if they only ever played online when they were perfectly focused they would easily be rank 60-something; but day-to-day, on the ladder, they are distracted, or drunk, or whatever, and these bad play habits means their ranking is quite a bit lower than it could be. As far as the automatch system can tell, maybe you and this player are the same ranking, but if you have the bad luck to match with this player at a moment in which they are very focused, you'll get trounced because if you control for bad habits around online play, they are the much more skilled player.

Years ago I made the decision to never play before my first coffee and to never play after my third beer and damn if my rating didn't jump 4 points in like two weeks.

Well, I'm thinking I should set my rank to -20, -30 at this point, and then I need the beer after I play.  The humour is appreciated.

Offline artsfols

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Re: Looking for suggestions #2
« Reply #10 on: 28 July 2020, 04:00:00 AM »
I'm only playing once in a while against bots.  I don't have a chance on the ladder as I only have a silver subscription and 8 or so expansion sets. It's taken some time to learn all these sets and I don't fancy learning more. I could join a random table from the Tables list, but that area looks confusing to me.  The 'help' area does describe a feature where you can join a table and play only cards familiar to both players.  How do I find someone with a table like that?  I suspect that you can't easily. I am in awe of the basic Dominion engine, but the 'on ramping' of this game leaves something to be desired.  Take a look at something like Hearthstone where you begin playing immediately and learn incrementally as you go.  (Mind you, it's not near the game Dominion is, but they have thought through the new user experience more carefully, and are making money hand over fist).
I don't mean this as a 'rant'.  Maybe there are lots of players that know every single card in all expansions, and in that case, I would love this site.  But as a novice, it isn't all that it really could be, and it wouldn't take all that much to improve it. For example, seeing open tables with a few key parameters that would help me decide whether or not to join it. 
A ladder based on silver subscription would be fantastic also, but that idea may not have broad appeal.  However, I feel such a feature could attract far more novice players to the site.

Offline Ingix

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Re: Looking for suggestions #2
« Reply #11 on: 28 July 2020, 10:34:00 AM »
Thanks for the suggestions!

It's indeed been said a few times that the step up from "base only" to "Silver" and from there to "Gold" is too big.

The table system is to unwieldy if you want to play with strangers, I agree.

What you should do is go to your Matching tab and select the following configuration:



Unrated games means your familiar cards are automatically respected. If you curated your familiar cards such that they correspond with the cards you know, that should exactly do the trick. Also remember that in the "Options" tab there is one option "Max unfamiliar cards" that sets the maximal number of unfamilar cards that may appear in a kingdom. You can set this to 0 if you really want no "new" cards.

Offline artsfols

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Re: Looking for suggestions #2
« Reply #12 on: 02 August 2020, 06:17:19 PM »
Thanks for the suggestions!

It's indeed been said a few times that the step up from "base only" to "Silver" and from there to "Gold" is too big.

The table system is to unwieldy if you want to play with strangers, I agree.



Well, Ingix, I do appreciate the affirmation and also the further suggestion.  I am sure that if this is a perceived problem, then you'll figure out a solution along the way.  There is more than one way to skin a cat.  And I think the Dominion people would make a ton of money by improving the novice experience in whatever way you come up with.

I'll be trying the suggestion soon, but if you see this before I do, does the matching process yield the intersection of the two players' familiar cards, or a union of them.  Or is the net effect to create an intersection for (N-o) cards, where N is the number of card types in the supply, and o is the minimum of the two players unfamiliar card settings, and then add in unfamiliar cards for the rest?

If the question is not clear, I'll play with it and see.

Today I'll be playing with some real players known to me, and in that respect the game excels.

Offline Ingix

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Re: Looking for suggestions #2
« Reply #13 on: 02 August 2020, 09:17:52 PM »
If both players want 0 other cards, then it's the intersection.

What I think happens is that the game randomly choses a card and sees if it fits. That can be a familar card for one player and a "new" card to another player. As soon as both players have their "new" card slots filled, the remaining cards must be familiar to both of them.