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Author Topic: Undo backlash  (Read 1102 times)

Offline Quori

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Undo backlash
« on: 18 January 2021, 06:24:18 PM »
I am seriously getting sick of the backlash for not allowing an undo.

Yes, you misclicked...we all do from time to time. UNDO IS NOT A PART OF THE ACTUAL GAME. I vehemently feel the feature needs to be either removed entirely or be a preference setting for a user. Allow me to turn it off for my matches.

I am tired of being flamed, cursed at, deliberate slow play and trolling because I am telling someone to live with a mistake. That's called life, grow up.


Offline Ingix

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Re: Undo backlash
« Reply #1 on: 18 January 2021, 06:58:15 PM »
While there may be different opinions on the topic, being harrassed, flamed or slow-played against is never acceptable.

If this is done to you, please report the other player, using the reporting feature at https://tinyurl.com/dominion-abuse . If you want a bit of explanation, go to this forum message How to report abusive players

Offline theWalrus

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Re: Undo backlash
« Reply #2 on: 18 January 2021, 07:58:32 PM »
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While there may be different opinions on the topic, ... or slow-played against is never acceptable.

I disagree.

ShuffleIT's official position on the issue of undos is clear; that they should be allowed when the player requesting the undo has not gained an unfair advantage (i.e., has not seen cards , etc...).

The Undo feature is a necessary feature which allows for significantly faster gameplay and helps protect against device rendering issues and/or other UI issues.

If someone I am playing refuses a reasonable request for an undo, then I have no recourse but to play very deliberately, in order to ensure that I do not make another misclick in the game (as I now know I am playing against someone who will not honor reasonable undo requests).

I have, in over 6 months of playing, only refused two undo requests, and one of those was to someone who had refused an earlier request from me. I have had games where I have granted multiple undo requests; personally, I understand that the granting of such requests is the price to pay for playing faster games.

People who refuse reasonable undo requests should absolutely expect that their opponents will necessarily play in a slower, more deliberate fashion; to reject an opponent's undo request and then complain that they play slow is foolish. You simply can't have it both ways.

Offline Ingix

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Re: Undo backlash
« Reply #3 on: 18 January 2021, 09:40:02 PM »
There is a difference between playing deliberately, even cautiously, and what is considered slow playing where somene plays Copper after Coppper with 3 minute pauses in between.

Offline theWalrus

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Re: Undo backlash
« Reply #4 on: 18 January 2021, 10:08:05 PM »
Sure, just as there is a difference between not granting an undo for a move which has resulted in your opponent gaining information that they otherwise would not have obtained, and not granting all undos because of poor sportsmanship, regardless of whether some (most? all?) of such requests are the result of UI glitches/idiosyncrasies and/or scenarios that would never come up in face-to-face play.

Ultimately, people who exhibit such unsporting behavior have no grounds to complain when their opponent responds in kind. If you want your opponent to observe good sportsmanship, you need to observe it yourself.

To the OP, I would say: Just grant the undo. It's a game; have some fun. If you feel someone is trying to get over on you, explain such via chat. If they don't respond/don't listen, blacklist them and move on.

That said, I would support a feature where people could turn off the undo feature, if accompanied by a feature which allowed me to not match with such players. I'm here (and I pay my subscription fee) to have a good time. I don't need to match with people who take every move so seriously and who would rather "stick it" to their opponent than allow for fair play.

Offline Quori

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Re: Undo backlash
« Reply #5 on: 19 January 2021, 05:42:21 PM »
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While there may be different opinions on the topic, ... or slow-played against is never acceptable.
ShuffleIT's official position on the issue of undos is clear; that they should be allowed when the player requesting the undo has not gained an unfair advantage (i.e., has not seen cards , etc...).

Please show me the official position on this?

It seems to me if there was an official "allow this" then I as the player would not have the choice to deny it.

Again....I have a choice here. And it doesn't make me a monster or deserving of criticism because I chose "no undos". Now if I denied yours and then requested one for myself...sure I am hypocritical and deserve to be treated accordingly. But if the mistake in question has no unfair advantage in correcting, then it also has no reasonable expectation of making a difference if moved past entirely. In fact, I would argue the skill involved in compensating for such mistakes is a testament to the player who knows the game and can adjust on the fly to such things.

The issue for me is simply this. You are assuming 1) all undo requests are fair 2) All undo requests are done in good faith and 3) assuming the reasoning for why an undo should be allowed.

It cant be "Well we allow them for misclicks" well what if they are saying its a misclick but wasn't? What if they simply changed their mind? You cannot determine the actual reason or validity of the action....therefore it shouldn't be allowed at all. Undos can be abused far too easily with certain cards. Do we allow undos with some decks and not others?

You're stating an opinion, not a fact with your comment and trying to pass it off as "But this is the will of the makers of the game". Its not.

Offline theWalrus

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Re: Undo backlash
« Reply #6 on: 20 January 2021, 12:13:25 AM »
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Please show me the official position on this?

I know I have seen this on the Discord, though it may have been in relation to one of the leagues (and thus not an official ShuffleIT position). If I misrepresented, I apologize.

That said, I stand firmly behind the rest. No, not allowing undos does not make you a monster; however, people who unilaterally refuse all undos are guilty of poor sportsmanship and such players have no standing to complain about the sportsmanship of others. There are many valid reasons that people request undos during the course of a game; refusing all such requests out-of-hand is petty.

As I said, when I find myself faced with someone who refuses even obvious undo requests, my only recourse is to slow my play down substantially in order to prevent any further misclicks. That includes not autoplaying treasures (which can lead to misplays, if we're honest). If my opponent is bothered by this, they are free to resign and blacklist me.

Personally, I feel I'm a generous player, and I tend to play quickly and politely (usually offering gg and the like after a game). I have little patience for people who take the game so seriously.

(I should add - I rarely ask for undos. I probably grant 4-6 undos, if not more, for every one that I request.)

Offline Quori

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Re: Undo backlash
« Reply #7 on: 20 January 2021, 02:33:21 AM »
Again, this is opinion. Stating "refuse all undos are guilty of poor sportsmanship" is akin to saying "not saying bless you means you are rude". Yeah, no.

The actual game does not have undos. The first official iteration of the digital Dominion did not have them either. Its not a thing. This is a construct of the ShuffleIt that also was not in the original release either. It is not an actual rule....So not granting them is not indicative of bad sportsmanship and more than granting is indicative of good sportsmanship. Someone can grant undos but still be cheating, abusive, trolling, etc. They are not unilaterally connected.

Again....the player has the choice. If it is a CHOICE, then one should not be judged and treated poorly as a result of their choice.

Offline Ingix

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Re: Undo backlash
« Reply #8 on: 20 January 2021, 10:56:00 AM »
Again....the player has the choice. If it is a CHOICE, then one should not be judged and treated poorly as a result of their choice.

Come on, not being judged by a choice you make is definitely not how this works in real life. People who you did not grant an undo to and who think it should be granted have every right to be annoyed at you, just like you have every right to be annoyed by their repeated tries.

What you are right about is that you should not be treated poorly, and I have mentioed a few ways how you can minimize the effect of that on you in a response in the other thread about a similar topic.

This implementation has undos, and many people find them useful in a few situations like misclicks. Turning it off entirely for everbody I would consider a big step back, of course opinions on that might differ. Turning it off per player would be possible, but then you might find yourself in a position that you are no longer matched with any players, because there might not be enough players also choosing that option that also fullfill the other criteria.

Offline Quori

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Re: Undo backlash
« Reply #9 on: 20 January 2021, 04:25:07 PM »
Ingix, I think the best solution assuming the developers want undos in the game is simply to make them always active and limited per game. 2 per player per match. no approval needed.

I do not like them, but I can get behind it if the devs feel it is absolutely necessary; it just needs guardrails in place. Additionally it is absolutely lazy and bad development to put the entirety of the process in the players hands. It absolves the developers of any blame or culpability to the ramifications of what transpires.

"Hey you denied it you have to deal with it" yeah but if you just made it mandatory then I dont have to be viewed as a "bad guy" and I can make a personal choice to play or not play if I do not like a feature of the game.

Having it in there is not the issue....allowing it to be controlled by the player is. 

Offline theWalrus

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Re: Undo backlash
« Reply #10 on: 20 January 2021, 04:41:47 PM »
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The actual game does not have undos.

In-person games don't have misclicks, either. The original game does not present you with a situation where you have 3 Magpies in hand, planning to play all 3, and, after playing the first two, your hand re-renders and you accidentally click on a smithy, ending your actions for the turn before you get to play your third magpie.

The original game is played at a far more deliberate pace. A single in-person game easily takes 3x as long as an online game, and part of that is attributable to the speed with which the players make their plays. This is going to lead to some misclicks in the online game, and to situations arising (as above) that simply would never occur when playing in person.

The only way to fully mitigate against such accidental misclicks/misplays is to play the online game at the same slow, deliberate pace as in-person games. That appears to be your preference, and when I find myself matched against people who prefer this style of placing for an online game, I oblige. That's not poor sportsmanship on my part; it's smart play, sizing up my opponent and adapting my play accordingly.

Yes, you can chose to reject all undo requests out of hand. I can view you as a poor sport for doing so. We'll have to agree to disagree, and hope we never match up. (I have a pretty mediocre rating, so I imagine that won't be much of an issue; I clearly take all of this far less seriously than you do)


Offline Quori

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Re: Undo backlash
« Reply #11 on: 20 January 2021, 07:05:01 PM »
I can view you as a poor sport for doing so.

by this logic, I can view you as an idiot for rushing and wildly clicking like a petulant and impatient child.

Does this back and forth help anyone? Does this progress the online version of the game and develop a better community?

Offline theWalrus

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Re: Undo backlash
« Reply #12 on: 21 January 2021, 05:12:56 AM »
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by this logic, I can view you as an idiot for rushing and wildly clicking like a petulant and impatient child.

Well, except when we play slowly you complain about that too...

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Does this back and forth help anyone?

It's your thread. You're the one who felt the need to complain that people responding to your poor sportsmanship in kind were being unfair.

Does it help anyone? Probably not, though I'm glad you have this forum to get these struggles off of your chest.

Offline Quori

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Re: Undo backlash
« Reply #13 on: 21 January 2021, 03:51:53 PM »
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by this logic, I can view you as an idiot for rushing and wildly clicking like a petulant and impatient child.

Well, except when we play slowly you complain about that too...

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Does this back and forth help anyone?

It's your thread. You're the one who felt the need to complain that people responding to your poor sportsmanship in kind were being unfair.

Does it help anyone? Probably not, though I'm glad you have this forum to get these struggles off of your chest.

Dude, my complaint was not someone playing slowly as in deliberately paced and careful. My complaint is someone pissed that I denied their undo request then playing slowly as a troll. clicking only once just before the game would auto quit them. That isn't remotely the same.

Yes i started the thread to point out that if the developers allow US the choice to deny undos then we should not face negative behavior from other players for that choice. That is not acceptable. If you cannot follow that logic regardless of agreeing with it or not; then yeah...you have the problem here and don't reply in the thread at all.

And once again...you label me as a bad sport for an allowable choice in the game. Am I a bad sport for buying an attack card and playing it? So fine...you are a childish moron. period end of story. Again...blanket labels work both ways.

Offline josh bornstein

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Re: Undo backlash
« Reply #14 on: 21 January 2021, 11:28:19 PM »
Quori,

The way the vast majority of people play here is to give Undo automatically in situations where the player got no advantage.  Especially true when it was a mis-click.  Especially especially true for online situations that simply would never happen in real life.  (In my real life games, people show all their treasure cards and everyone knows that Bank is played last [or maybe right before Fortune, in an edge case].  To give just one of a thousand examples).

So, since practically the entire Dominion online community plays with the standard, OF COURSE you come across as some version of jerk or rude or poor sport, if you post about wanting to change the gameplay, to accommodate your values at the expense of 90+% of other players.  Your post, and subsequent responses, suggest that you are NOT, in fact, a jerk.  You made a reasonable and thoughtful post, you got honest feedback, and then the thread has, slowly, become a bit more personal and hostile.

I'll observe that an extremely kind and gentle and wonderful person can still come across as a jerk, even though that appearance is unfair and unjustified.  One way to disabuse others of an incorrect first impression might be to make a conscious effort to not add insults, to not ratchet-up the personal comments.  This can be difficult when one feels that she or he has been unfairly attacked.  Just my 2 cents here.

I'll note that the Chat function can be very helpful, to address your concerns about how to handle Undo requests.  I'll offer a suggestion to you:  At the start of a game: write in Chat something like, "Hi. Good luck.  You should know that I prefer to not grant Undo's, and I'll never request one myself.  Is this okay?  If not, please play extra-slowly, and I will not be hurt if you want to stop after only one game."

Or, "Hi. I wanted to mention upfront that I prefer to not grant Undo requests.  If you do end up asking for an Undo, please explain why here in Chat.  Good luck...I'm looking forward to playing with you."

I think there are ways of telling people, before a game even starts, how you feel, and ways of doing it nicely.  You will certainly end up with fewer people wanting to play with you.  But, probably, your games will be more enjoyable for you, as you'll get far fewer requests coming at you during games.

(p.s.  Have you really been playing games where people are making Undo requests many many times during the game?  That would be incredibly annoying for me as well...I think a few people made 2 such requests in a single game, and that is the most I've had to deal with.)


Offline no expansions

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Re: Undo backlash
« Reply #15 on: 01 March 2021, 06:58:37 AM »
i agree with you OP. i never allow undos and i don't ask for it either. if you make a mistake suck it up.
and if the person then starts playing slow, then i just start a new game on another device, no big deal

Offline jeebus

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Re: Undo backlash
« Reply #16 on: 14 April 2021, 01:51:02 PM »
UNDO IS NOT A PART OF THE ACTUAL GAME.

Misclicking is not part of the actual game either.