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Author Topic: Elder - what gives you a "choice"?  (Read 697 times)

Offline fvigeland

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Elder - what gives you a "choice"?
« on: 26 April 2022, 07:16:45 PM »
The text of Elder says: "+2. You may play an Action card from your hand. When it gives you a choice of abilities (e.g. “choose one”) this turn, you may choose an extra (different) option." The "e.g." in the parenthetical (which is short for "for example") says to me that "choose one" is not the only wording by which a card may give you a choice. If Elder worked ONLY on cards that said "choose one," it would be worded like Patron, which says that "using the word 'reveal'" is the only way a card causes you to reveal it.

Thus, I think Elder should apply to Barge, which offers you a choice with the word "either": "Either now or at the start of your next turn, +3 Cards and +1 Buy." This is plainly a choice between "now" or "at the start of your next turn." Can anyone rationalize why Elder does not work with Barge? If the point is that Elder ONLY works with "choose one" phrasing, then I would propose "e.g." be changed to "i.e." (meaning "that is") or to the Patron phrasing of "using the phrase 'choose one'."

Offline fvigeland

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Re: Elder - what gives you a "choice"?
« Reply #1 on: 26 April 2022, 07:22:08 PM »
I should add that I strongly think Elder should work with Barge and any other card that uses the word "either," like Village Green. Ultimately, a choice to me is not about the words "choose one" but around the word "or"... not to get too semantic.

Nevertheless, from the official FAQ for Village Green, emphasis added:
When playing Village Green, choose whether to take +1 Card and +2 Actions immediately, or at the start of your next turn.

Offline Ingix

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Re: Elder - what gives you a "choice"?
« Reply #2 on: 27 April 2022, 07:26:21 AM »
The guiding principle is that you should choose between different abilities, not just a choice inside an ability. That means you still gain only one card with Elder-Workshop, although what card you gain is certainly a choice you have to make.

You are not the only one who thinks that Elder should work with Barge and Village Green. It's a border case, because while the ability is the same either way, the choice is about the timing of that ability. It could go both ways, and the decision has been made that it "doesn't count" for Elder.

Offline fvigeland

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Re: Elder - what gives you a "choice"?
« Reply #3 on: 27 April 2022, 05:52:58 PM »
Interesting. I guess I can understand that Elder is about different abilities, not the timing of the same abilities. Still, I would recommend a wording change to Elder then. Is it the case that the only cards Elder's effect works on all have the phrasing "Choose one" or "Choose two"? If so, I would say "using the word 'choose.'" (I haven't yet played with these cards in the same kingdom, but I assume that Elder-Trusty Steed allows you to choose three options?)

Offline Ingix

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Re: Elder - what gives you a "choice"?
« Reply #4 on: 27 April 2022, 06:25:41 PM »
Yes, I think at the moment it only applies to effects using "choose" and then listing a number (either fixed, as "one" or "two", or variable as for Scrap and Courtier).

Offline fvigeland

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Re: Elder - what gives you a "choice"?
« Reply #5 on: 27 April 2022, 06:28:06 PM »
Got it. Thanks so much for the explanation! Clarifying that the word "choose" is operative in Elder's text would be great.

Offline ThankUChris

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Re: Elder - what gives you a "choice"?
« Reply #6 on: 04 May 2022, 05:19:41 PM »
I think the key phrase is "When it gives you a choice of abilities (e.g. “choose one”) THIS TURN". If you are making a choice that doesn't occur THIS TURN, then you don't benefit from being able to choose additional choices. Yes, it would be better if Elder clarified that it doesn't apply to actions that impact subsequent turns.

Offline jeebus

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Re: Elder - what gives you a "choice"?
« Reply #7 on: 19 May 2022, 10:56:00 AM »
I think the key phrase is "When it gives you a choice of abilities (e.g. “choose one”) THIS TURN". If you are making a choice that doesn't occur THIS TURN, then you don't benefit from being able to choose additional choices. Yes, it would be better if Elder clarified that it doesn't apply to actions that impact subsequent turns.

That's not the reason it doesn't work on Barge. Barge sets up an effect for next turn, but Barge does that this turn (and the choice is this turn). The reason is that Elder only affects cards that say "choose" and then list effects. Otherwise it could also affect Tournament for instance, letting you both get a Duchy and a Prize, and Border Guard, letting you take both Lantern and Horn.

Offline fvigeland

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Re: Elder - what gives you a "choice"?
« Reply #8 on: 19 May 2022, 05:47:16 PM »
I hear you, but as written, Elder's text says that "choose" is only one possible word that its effect applies to. If it applies only and explicitly to cards using the word "choose," it should resemble the text of Patron ("using the word 'choose'") or change "e.g." to "i.e."

As it stands now, Barge and Village Green give you a choice this turn using the phasing "either/or" (and Village Green's FAQ even explicitly uses the word "choose").

Offline jeebus

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Re: Elder - what gives you a "choice"?
« Reply #9 on: 19 May 2022, 07:47:50 PM »
I hear you, but as written, Elder's text says that "choose" is only one possible word that its effect applies to. If it applies only and explicitly to cards using the word "choose," it should resemble the text of Patron ("using the word 'choose'") or change "e.g." to "i.e."

As it stands now, Barge and Village Green give you a choice this turn using the phasing "either/or" (and Village Green's FAQ even explicitly uses the word "choose").

I'm not disagreeing with you - we have to read Elder's FAQ to know what it's supposed to mean. I was just replying to the poster before me, who said that Elder doesn't affect Barge because of the "next turn" ability. That's not ther reason. My reply was based on how Elder is supposed to work.