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Author Topic: Rules enquiry (monkey)  (Read 326 times)

Offline suet63

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Rules enquiry (monkey)
« on: 29 June 2022, 04:22:31 PM »
Monkey

1.When the player to your right gains a card on their turn, they resolve any of their on-gain effects before you draw a card (which could matter vs Skirmisher).

2.If Monkey draws a Reaction that can react to the card they gained (such as Falconer), you can immediately use it.

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When opponent gains a card, they resolve their on-gain effects. They finish resolve it, then I draw a card. If I draw a reaction card (Falconer), why can I immediately use it? I thought my opponent already finish his on-gain effect and the 'gain' is finished. Am I right? ::)

Offline Ingix

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Re: Rules enquiry (monkey)
« Reply #1 on: 29 June 2022, 09:02:01 PM »
Monkey

1.When the player to your right gains a card on their turn, they resolve any of their on-gain effects before you draw a card (which could matter vs Skirmisher).

Correct.

2.If Monkey draws a Reaction that can react to the card they gained (such as Falconer), you can immediately use it.

Also correct.

When opponent gains a card, they resolve their on-gain effects. They finish resolve it, then I draw a card. If I draw a reaction card (Falconer), why can I immediately use it? I thought my opponent already finish his on-gain effect and the 'gain' is finished. Am I right? ::)

The reaction/trigger window for the gain is not finished until all players have in turn declined to use a Reaction or triggered ability. With the (wrong) method you are describing here, a Moat couldn't ever be used to block an attack, as your opponent usually never has some Reaction or trigger for their own attack.

Offline suet63

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Re: Rules enquiry (monkey)
« Reply #2 on: 29 June 2022, 10:03:04 PM »
Monkey

1.When the player to your right gains a card on their turn, they resolve any of their on-gain effects before you draw a card (which could matter vs Skirmisher).

Correct.

2.If Monkey draws a Reaction that can react to the card they gained (such as Falconer), you can immediately use it.

Also correct.

When opponent gains a card, they resolve their on-gain effects. They finish resolve it, then I draw a card. If I draw a reaction card (Falconer), why can I immediately use it? I thought my opponent already finish his on-gain effect and the 'gain' is finished. Am I right? ::)

The reaction/trigger window for the gain is not finished until all players have in turn declined to use a Reaction or triggered ability. With the (wrong) method you are describing here, a Moat couldn't ever be used to block an attack, as your opponent usually never has some Reaction or trigger for their own attack.

I misread the falconer card. In this case, I can play falconer because of the card gained by monkey, not directly because of the card my opponent gain.....

So, if I have a monkey in play, and my opponent gains a province (victory card), and I draw a card (Black Cat), I cannot play it, because I only have Black Cat after my opponent finishes resolving the gain effect of the province. Is this right..?

I also want to ask, can I play multiple reaction cards on ONE card that my opponent plays? Say he plays witch, I use guard dog to draw 2cards, I draw a moat, can I use the moat to block the witch attack?

Offline Ingix

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Re: Rules enquiry (monkey)
« Reply #3 on: 30 June 2022, 09:20:59 AM »
I misread the falconer card. In this case, I can play falconer because of the card gained by monkey, not directly because of the card my opponent gain.....

Monkey does not gain you any cards, Monkey allows you to draw cards you already have in your deck. In your original example, if you draw a Falconer and the initial gain by opponent had multiple types, you can play it reacting to your opponent's gain.

I also want to ask, can I play multiple reaction cards on ONE card that my opponent plays? Say he plays witch, I use guard dog to draw 2cards, I draw a moat, can I use the moat to block the witch attack?

This seems to be the core of your misunderstanding. You can play as many applicable Reactions as you have available, one after the other. In an obviously extreme example, if you have a hand of 10 Guard Dogs and your opponent plays an attack, you can play them all, drawing 20 cards alltogether. And if there is a Moat among them, you can play it afterwards to be unaffected by the attack.

I'm describing this in more detail below, in response to your other question. But the main thing is that there can be many Reactions and/or triggers that apply to a single gain (or other event).


So, if I have a monkey in play, and my opponent gains a province (victory card), and I draw a card (Black Cat), I cannot play it, because I only have Black Cat after my opponent finishes resolving the gain effect of the province. Is this right..?

No, that is incorrect. You can play the Black Cat. Your opponent gains the Province and puts it into their discard pile. Gaining the Province is over at this time. Now starts a "timing window" for Reactions/Triggers, where all players can use Reaction cards (like Black Cat) or existing triggered effects (like from Monkey) to do things. Only when all players have said they don't want to do anything regarding this any more, does that "timing window" close.

Your opponent gets first shot to do something (they are the active player), they likely have nothing to do. So now the "game asks you" if you have any, the answer is yes, a mandatory one, from Monkey. So you resolve it, and draw a card (we assume it's a Black Cat).

Since something happened, the game returns to the beginning and asks your opponent again if they want to react or use a trigger on their Province gain. Again, they don't have one, so the game asks you again, and again you have one (an optional one), you can play the Black Cat! You do that and draw 2 cards and your opponent gets a Curse.

Something happened, so again "the game asks" your opponent if they want to react or use a trigger on their Province gain. For the third time, they have nothiing to do, so the game asks you. Now, assuming you didn't draw another Black Cat, you finally have nothing to do.

Both you and your opponent declined to do anything, so only now is the time when the timing window closes that allows any of you to use a Reaction or Trigger on the Province gain.


Offline suet63

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Re: Rules enquiry (monkey)
« Reply #4 on: 30 June 2022, 01:02:22 PM »
@the first part

I try to use the 'timeline' concept, that the card my opponent gain, my monkey draw, and my falconer play, happens simultaneously. But it's not right.

@second part

I guess it is the "you may 'FIRST' play" phrase indicating I can play multiple reactions.

How about can I use the same reaction card for multiple times towards the same event? For example I have 10 cards in hand, and one of them is diplomat, my opponents plays a witch, can I use one diplomat card to sift multiple times? If I can't, does it mean in real life games, I need to set aside my diplomat to prevent me from using it for many times? I found the answer on wiki while reading 'reactions', and it's Yes, but usually people won't do that much.

@third part

Thanks for the explanation for the concept 'timing window'. Clear enough. But I wonder how a laymen player could interpret the game in this way. I find out the 'reaction' page on wiki is what I need. And your timing window explanation is a clearer version of some phrases written there.


Thanks anyways problem solved I guess ^_^






Offline Ingix

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Re: Rules enquiry (monkey)
« Reply #5 on: 03 July 2022, 09:06:15 AM »
@@second part

I guess it is the "you may 'FIRST' play" phrase indicating I can play multiple reactions.

The "FIRST" part is only saying that you do the Reaction before the played card does any of the effects. If it didn't say "first", you'd wait until after the played card is fully resolved. That is vital for cards like Moat, that wouldn't work at all if the attack was already done with at the time you are supposedly "unaffected by it". For cards like Guard Dog, the strategic difference is that you may be able to draw a Moat with Guard Dog's effect, then reveal the Moat to block the attack outright for you.

But the "first" is not the reason you can use as many Reactions/triggers as you have/want to use, it only changes when those Reactions/triggers that say "first" are usable.

How about can I use the same reaction card for multiple times towards the same event? For example I have 10 cards in hand, and one of them is diplomat, my opponents plays a witch, can I use one diplomat card to sift multiple times?

Yes, you can. I actually had this happen for me a few days ago in a game (not 10 cards initially, but 7). Just to make it clear, that does not work on Reactions that permanently leave your hand when reacting (e.g. Guard Dog or Black Cat), but Dimplomat only needs to revealed, so stays in hand (if you don't discard it).

If I can't, does it mean in real life games, I need to set aside my diplomat to prevent me from using it for many times?

No you don't need to. The rules are made such that you only do Reactions/triggers one at a time. If a previous Reaction drew you cards, any new cards you got can be used later. The Reaction wiki points this out in the Other Rules Clarification:

Quote
It is permissible to reveal a Reaction from one's hand in response to an event even if the Reaction was not yet in hand when the triggering event took place, provided that the ability that puts the Reaction in hand was also triggered by the same event that triggered the Reaction. For instance, if you gain a Curse from another player, you may play a Sheepdog, draw another Sheepdog, and play it as well.

Thanks for the explanation for the concept 'timing window'. Clear enough. But I wonder how a laymen player could interpret the game in this way.

Timing is a hard concept in every "interactive" game (where players may do something at a time that is not obvious to other players, like Reactions in Dominion). As the Retrospective on the wiki says, Donald X. thinks this turned out too complicated. It allows greater flexibility, but timing windows inside timing windows can confuse people to no end.