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Author Topic: Log doesn't show spending coin tokens  (Read 516 times)

Online JW

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Log doesn't show spending coin tokens
« on: 30 December 2016, 08:42:47 PM »
The log doesn't show when a player spends coin tokens. My opponent surprised me with a 3-pile ending because he had a bunch of coin tokens saved up, and looking at the log I couldn't even see how it happened. Game #529 on frankfurt-test.


Offline bedlam

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Re: Log doesn't show spending coin tokens
« Reply #1 on: 22 April 2017, 05:45:42 AM »
Bumping this. The log should show when a coin token is spent so that we can more accurately track card buys.

Offline Ingix

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Re: Log doesn't show spending coin tokens
« Reply #2 on: 23 April 2017, 08:12:46 PM »
The log isn't needed to find out the number of coin token opponent has currently, because it is clearly shown in the UI.

I'm not sure what the "more accurately track card buys" is supposed to mean, can you please elaborate?

Offline jsh

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Re: Log doesn't show spending coin tokens
« Reply #3 on: 23 April 2017, 08:18:50 PM »
The log isn't needed to find out the number of coin token opponent has currently, because it is clearly shown in the UI.

I'm not sure what the "more accurately track card buys" is supposed to mean, can you please elaborate?

More than one time, someone has popped in the Discord asking why their opponent was able to buy a Province for less than $8. It turned out they didn't notice the coin tokens, and the tokens weren't in the log. Stuff like this is why the log is necessary (in contrast to people who say the game should be playable without the log) and the log certainly needs to be updated to show coin tokens being spent. Yeah, if they were watching the UI the whole time, they would have seen the tokens getting spent, but if they tabbed out or sneezed...

Offline Ingix

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Re: Log doesn't show spending coin tokens
« Reply #4 on: 23 April 2017, 08:39:24 PM »
So to make sure I understand: People play, get distracted for a short time, come back to the game, see their opponent played nothing but 3 Silvers last turn but still bought a Province and wondered what happened?

If that is true, then sure, indicating that 2 coin tokens where used is a good thing to have. I still wonder what that has to do with accurately tracking card buys. I'm not against it, I just don't know what it means!

Offline jsh

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Re: Log doesn't show spending coin tokens
« Reply #5 on: 23 April 2017, 08:43:28 PM »
So to make sure I understand: People play, get distracted for a short time, come back to the game, see their opponent played nothing but 3 Silvers last turn but still bought a Province and wondered what happened?

If that is true, then sure, indicating that 2 coin tokens where used is a good thing to have. I still wonder what that has to do with accurately tracking card buys. I'm not against it, I just don't know what it means!

Because they couldn't track how the opponent bought the Province.

Even if you don't understand what the phrase means, I don't see how having coin tokens shown in the logs is a bad thing. I don't think anybody is requesting something ridiculous or hard to implement here.

Offline Ingix

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Re: Log doesn't show spending coin tokens
« Reply #6 on: 23 April 2017, 09:13:33 PM »
I'm not against it! I just want to understand how people use different parts of the game. And when they ask for some feature, this is a good way to understand their thinking.

I'm just objecting (a little bit) to calling this "tracking the buys", because that is something the log already does. I'd call it "making sure I understand what happens".

Offline fisherman

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Re: Log doesn't show spending coin tokens
« Reply #7 on: 23 April 2017, 10:02:54 PM »
It also seems like it might be useful for "undo" purposes, if you spend spend some coin tokens, start buying things and realize you have miscounted. Currently I think you have to go back an extra step?

Offline AdamH

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Re: Log doesn't show spending coin tokens
« Reply #8 on: 23 April 2017, 10:48:42 PM »
It's useful to know how many coin tokens were spent. There are a few situations where it's a good idea to spend more coin tokens than what's needed to buy the stuff.

If I'm looking at a game log at any time other than while the game is being played, it would be really difficult to follow what's going on without any more confusion than what's necessary. I'm actually of the opinion that much more information should be shown in the game logs; particularly right before cards are bought, there should be a line saying how much money, buys, and remaining actions there were at that time. Bonus points for an additional line that displays other status quirks like cost reduction, duration attacks, etc.

Having game logs that look great and are very useful (and shareable) is a really good way to bring in new people to the game.

Offline JKRich

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Re: Log doesn't show spending coin tokens
« Reply #9 on: 24 April 2017, 12:01:43 AM »
It's useful to know how many coin tokens were spent.
Of course. Clearly the log should say, for example:

J plays 2 Silvers, 2 Coppers and 2 Coin Tokens
J buys a Province

to avoid any confusion about how the Province was bought. Now where this fits in the priority list among the plethora of things that need to be fixed/improved in the client is a much more complex question. However,
Stuff like this is why the log is necessary (in contrast to people who say the game should be playable without the log) Yeah, if they were watching the UI the whole time, they would have seen the tokens getting spent, but if they tabbed out or sneezed...
is just mystifying. No one's saying you should be forced to play without the log, but if you choose to, even in the cases you cited (tabbing out, sneezing, ...) if you've played Dominion for any length of time (and I'm still a relative newbie) you should realize that if coin tokens are in the game they are a potential source of coinage which are listed by each player's name. And technically, playing with a log is cheating. IRL I can't ask my friend "What card was it that you bought 2 turns ago?" without receiving a tirade. I can't see "What Turn # is this?", etc. Suggesting the game shouldn't be playable without the log, well I just don't get it, sorry.

Now my real idea for a feature request would be to have an audio log, the game announcing things like an opponent IRL would, such as "J is playing 2 Silvers and buying a Noble Brigand." That would be cool.

Offline jsh

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Re: Log doesn't show spending coin tokens
« Reply #10 on: 24 April 2017, 12:21:25 AM »
if you've played Dominion for any length of time (and I'm still a relative newbie) you should realize that if coin tokens are in the game they are a potential source of coinage which are listed by each player's name. And technically, playing with a log is cheating. IRL I can't ask my friend "What card was it that you bought 2 turns ago?" without receiving a tirade. I can't see "What Turn # is this?", etc. Suggesting the game shouldn't be playable without the log, well I just don't get it, sorry.

Now my real idea for a feature request would be to have an audio log, the game announcing things like an opponent IRL would, such as "J is playing 2 Silvers and buying a Noble Brigand." That would be cool.

 For clarity, I am responding to an erroneous mentality that extends beyond this one thread; there are people holding out hope that playing without a log for 100% of cases will ever be completely feasible. I don't think it would be for many reasons--it certainly wasn't on the past implementations either--but incidents like the one in this thread are the reason at stake.

I don't disagree with what you posted the bolded text, but the fact that it's come up at all is a clear indication the log is still needed even if everybody at the table knows about coin tokens.

As to your latter point, my response is: this isn't IRL Dominion; it's a computer game based on Dominion. We aren't sitting at a table chatting and using the social cues we would offline. It can't follow the rules 100% because it's in a different medium, which is why elements like the log are necessary. If I have to get up and check the door, I expect a log to be there explaining what just happened in the game. IRL, I would expect my opponent to wait before taking actions--this is not feasible online. The log isn't "cheating" at all because online Dominion's purpose is not to imitate IRL Dominion, but present the gameplay mechanics in a format playable online. If we carry the logic of "this should be like IRL Dominion" to further depths of madness, every person playing Dominion Online is supposed to be glued to the screen the entire game so they can discern everything or they're just screwed, and that seems very unrealistic to me for so many reasons you can very easily guess that I'm not sure why I have to keep writing this paragraph.

Are there complications and gameplay changes that come up because of the log existing? Sure. But that's the online meta, and you will find plenty of players who prefer that meta for their own reasons.

Offline JKRich

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Re: Log doesn't show spending coin tokens
« Reply #11 on: 24 April 2017, 01:17:55 AM »
To clarify my wonder was about
the log is necessary (in contrast to people who say the game should be playable without the log)
which says you don't think the game should be playable without the log. Maybe that was not your intent but that's how it reads. I realize the differences between IRL and OL. I (and many others) would love to be able to play the game without having to glance at a long list of words over and over and over all the time (not to mention how much screen space it takes up). That's the main point here and is why your post elicited a response. I also would love the game to be able to mimic the IRL game as much as possible to improve my IRL game, while allowing the ability to consult the log when necessary, which I understand may occur for various reasons as you have stated. That's all. No worries.

Offline AdamH

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Re: Log doesn't show spending coin tokens
« Reply #12 on: 24 April 2017, 01:22:54 AM »
IRL I can't ask my friend "What card was it that you bought 2 turns ago?" without receiving a tirade.

Maybe this is just me, but if my opponent knows what card he bought 2 turns ago and he's not telling me on principle, I'm never playing with that guy again. It's not like I'm quizzing him on a history of the game all the time, I try to play board games IRL with people I like and people I like are friendly enough to do that, even when there's money store credit on the line.

Suggesting the game shouldn't be playable without the log, well I just don't get it, sorry.

Unless I'm misunderstanding, I thought that the people who wanted the game to be playable without the log were saying they don't want to have to go click on things in the game log in order to perform legal actions in the game -- that there should be buttons for that or whatever. If someone is suggesting something different then I feel like they need to be pretty specific about what they want, since there would be ambiguity with whatever they want and this.


I think jsh makes a lot of good points about the differences between IRL Dominion and online Dominion. I would think the goal would be to make an online implementation that is as close as possible to the tabletop experience, but I also think there are reasonable deviations that need to be made because of the different medium. There have been long threads about resigning and point counters and that kind of stuff...

I think it's a very reasonable thing for the game log to fit in this space. IRL the game relies on people saying what they're doing and not being jerks about repeating themselves in case that's needed. If the rulebook demanded that I was silent while I played, then I would either house-rule that out immediately or just play a better game instead. There needs to be an interface online that makes it as easy and intuitive as possible to follow what's happening in the game and I think the game log should do that as much as possible without turning Dominion into a different game. There is some gray area here but I really don't think that "follow the tabletop game's rulebook to the letter" is the right answer on this front. I wouldn't play the online client if it did that and I don't think most other people would either.

Offline JKRich

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Re: Log doesn't show spending coin tokens
« Reply #13 on: 24 April 2017, 06:19:42 AM »
Unless I'm misunderstanding, I thought that the people who wanted the game to be playable without the log were saying they don't want to have to go click on things in the game log in order to perform legal actions in the game -- that there should be buttons for that or whatever.

Very interesting point - I'd never considered that "playable without the log" could actually mean not just 2 but 3 different things:
1. Playing a game where the log is not visible by default, but there is a "Show Log" button so that one can view the log if/when they need/want to.
2. Playing a game where the log is constantly visible as it is now but where there is never a need to go click on things in the game log in order to perform legal actions in the game.
3. Playing a game where you couldn't access the current game's log during the game even if you wanted to.

To me "playable without the log" means option #1. This option was a choice on the most recent previous implementation(MF) which is why I didn't expect AdamH to assume it was #2, or for it to appear that possibly jsh thought I meant it was #3 (a possible source of confusion related to the IRL stuff).

If someone is suggesting something different then I feel like they need to be pretty specific about what they want, since there would be ambiguity with whatever they want and this.
Again, since option #1 was recently the available optional choice, personally my bias would be to assume people meant that when saying "playable without the log" although I will concede the point if you feel differently. However, some have specifically said "playable without having to click on the log" or something to that effect, which clearly refers to option #2.

Finally, apologies jsh if I said anything to offend. I just want back an option we recently had (on MF) that I liked and didn't seem to pose any problems and couldn't understand why it appeared someone thought we shouldn't have that. Sorry.

Offline AdamH

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Re: Log doesn't show spending coin tokens
« Reply #14 on: 24 April 2017, 12:36:12 PM »
What you say makes sense. In my experience I think it would be beneficial to be as specific as possible, especially given the track record of the devs and supposed test team. It seems they need all the help they can get in understanding what their customers actually want.