Dominion: Nocturne

[Jacob Marley]

So, my point is that as long as the system correctly records the effects of the cards played, they are fully implemented AS CARDS.  If it is hard to look at the screen and figure out what is going on, the problem in an interface problem.

That's a completely made up distinction. The fact of the matter is that both the mechanics of the cards and the interface of the cards need to be implemented. To put it another way, Stef is going to add the full card image to all the new cards; he's not keep them blank with just the card name and then focus on undo features until that's complete.

(Btw, Isotropic had the card text when you hovered over the card. Shuffle IT is the same; you right-click to view it. I don't read the card text without right-clicking it. Type and cost was shown in Isotropic without hovering.)

The distinction is:  "Computer correctly updates game state" vs "player can easily understand what is going on."  The point those who know programming are making is that getting to "Computer correctly updates game state" is comparatively easy and quick, so it makes sense to do that, which benefits everyone who can live with the current interface and still enjoy games.  Delaying Nocturne until everyone is satisfied with the interface is a loosing game, since that likely means a long haul on interface then Nocturne vs Nocturne quick then a long haul on the interface. 

Like Donald said, Nocturne will not make the unhappy people happy, but no Nocturne will make the happy people unhappy.  So there is no question that getting Nocturne released on time in necessary, even if it causes a slight delay in interface improvements.

[yahas]

Here's a simple back-of-the-envelope comparison to show that it won't take too much time to implement any Nocturne cards that don't have new mechanics that fundamentally change the code base - Inheritance was implemented within 4 months of the Shuffle IT implementation going up.

Even if you assume that Stef spent half his time figuring out the implementation (which he clearly didn't, given the large number of features that were added to the mostly bare implementation from December to April), that's 2 months to implement Inheritance, which is arguably the hardest card in the game to implement from the perspective of programming. I highly doubt that the Nocturne cards without new mechanics will be any harder to implement than Inheritance, and since they'll likely be higher priorities for Stef, he should easily be able to implement all of them in 2 months, even while working on the other features.

Seems like there's no reason why digital dominion should not be caught up with physical dominion.

[jeebus]

The distinction is:  "Computer correctly updates game state" vs "player can easily understand what is going on."  The point those who know programming are making is that getting to "Computer correctly updates game state" is comparatively easy and quick, so it makes sense to do that, which benefits everyone who can live with the current interface and still enjoy games.  Delaying Nocturne until everyone is satisfied with the interface is a loosing game, since that likely means a long haul on interface then Nocturne vs Nocturne quick then a long haul on the interface.

Not everyone who knows programming is making that point, since that also includes me. Again: Implementing Nocturne includes implementing the interface for Nocturne, so separating them is pretty meaningless. Maybe you're trying to say that fixing the basic missing interface features - like visible tokens, a marked place to click to see cards in play/set-aside, and a record of past game logs (just storing the actual text from the end-screen game log and creating an interface to access those) - is more work than implementing all of Nocturne. If so, I think you're wrong.

Like Donald said, Nocturne will not make the unhappy people happy, but no Nocturne will make the happy people unhappy.  So there is no question that getting Nocturne released on time in necessary, even if it causes a slight delay in interface improvements.

There's a huge disconnect here between what the vocal minority is saying here and reality. Delaying Nocturne and instead fixing basic functionality and bugs will make certain people unhappier, and others happier. The ones who will be happier are mostly a subset of the majority of people not posting here, and the people who try playing and give up and go away without posting, who instead will stay. I don't know how many new users sign up anymore, but there will be more when Nocturne is released.

Another thing that several people forget: Each expansion is less popular than the last. Dominion is a hugely popular game, but most people - by far - who play it don't have the latest expansion and are not planning to get it. This is very different from the vocal minority here.

[Jacob Marley]

The distinction is:  "Computer correctly updates game state" vs "player can easily understand what is going on."  The point those who know programming are making is that getting to "Computer correctly updates game state" is comparatively easy and quick, so it makes sense to do that, which benefits everyone who can live with the current interface and still enjoy games.  Delaying Nocturne until everyone is satisfied with the interface is a loosing game, since that likely means a long haul on interface then Nocturne vs Nocturne quick then a long haul on the interface.

Not everyone who knows programming is making that point, since that also includes me. Again: Implementing Nocturne includes implementing the interface for Nocturne, so separating them is pretty meaningless. Maybe you're trying to say that fixing the basic missing interface features - like visible tokens, a marked place to click to see cards in play/set-aside, and a record of past game logs (just storing the actual text from the end-screen game log and creating an interface to access those) - is more work than implementing all of Nocturne. If so, I think you're wrong.

Like Donald said, Nocturne will not make the unhappy people happy, but no Nocturne will make the happy people unhappy.  So there is no question that getting Nocturne released on time in necessary, even if it causes a slight delay in interface improvements.

There's a huge disconnect here between what the vocal minority is saying here and reality. Delaying Nocturne and instead fixing basic functionality and bugs will make certain people unhappier, and others happier. The ones who will be happier are mostly a subset of the majority of people not posting here, and the people who try playing and give up and go away without posting, who instead will stay. I don't know how many new users sign up anymore, but there will be more when Nocturne is released.

Another thing that several people forget: Each expansion is less popular than the last. Dominion is a hugely popular game, but most people - by far - who play it don't have the latest expansion and is not planning to get it. This is very different from the vocal minority here.

Ok, so your right that the opinions of the vocal minority and those of the total population using ShuffleIt are not the same.  However, there is also a distinction between the playing population and the paying population.  I have no evidence for this, and would not presume to speak for anybody but myself, but Id' guess that the paying population would have a significant percentage who will want the new cards asap, and will be unhappy if they are not available at release.  Keeping the paying population happy seems like a significant priority for Stef, which again argues for Nocturne being a priority.  In any case, this argument is really academic, since whatever Stef (or the forum community) thinks is the highest priority, Stef is contractually OBLIGATED to have Nocturne online at the release date.  We can argue back and forth what we think Stef should be doing with is time until the heat death of the universe, but that doesn't change what he MUST do to comply with his contract.

[werothegreat]

Hey, there's a new expansion coming out!  Who's excited?

[ThetaSigma12]

Hey, there's a new expansion coming out!  Who's excited?

I am! I am!

Soooo glad Nocturne comes out ASAP so I can play with it as soon as the cards come out. Need to get a Gold subscription though...

[meathead40]

I'm excited for the new expansion!  WooT!

[Matt Arnold]

Yes we will certainly have Nocturne online, ASAP.

Currently working on "disconnect issues", I will start implementing Nocturne next week.

I'm so excited that almost every day, I check this thread for updates. It has been a month since you posted this; no pressure, but I'm so curious about how the process works. How long does it typically take to implement a 500-card expansion?

I have been implementing web-based deck-building games for years as a hobby; I have also tended to poke around in Androminion on Android from time to time. So I am mostly asking because I keep wondering if you use a functional programming style, where "+1 Action" or "+1 Card" and so forth are extremely flexible "composable" functions which you assemble into new cards. And is the state tracked by something like Redis?

Not to get completely off topic. The point is, I know how difficult it is, because I have created bad architectures and started over with a new architecture more times than I can count. So here you are with a 500-card expansion, and you can say "I'll get to it next week, NBD." So I'm a fan of your work. Again, no pressure, and THANK YOU!

[Jacob Marley]

Remember, 500 card expansion means 500 rectangular pieces of cardshock in the box, not 500 unique things to program.  there are 33 new kingdom cards, boons, hexes and other cards given by kingdom cards, so maybe 40 or so things to program (just my estimate).

[jsh]

Yes we will certainly have Nocturne online, ASAP.

Currently working on "disconnect issues", I will start implementing Nocturne next week.

I'm so excited that almost every day, I check this thread for updates. It has been a month since you posted this; no pressure, but I'm so curious about how the process works. How long does it typically take to implement a 500-card expansion?

I have been implementing web-based deck-building games for years as a hobby; I have also tended to poke around in Androminion on Android from time to time. So I am mostly asking because I keep wondering if you use a functional programming style, where "+1 Action" or "+1 Card" and so forth are extremely flexible "composable" functions which you assemble into new cards. And is the state tracked by something like Redis?

Not to get completely off topic. The point is, I know how difficult it is, because I have created bad architectures and started over with a new architecture more times than I can count. So here you are with a 500-card expansion, and you can say "I'll get to it next week, NBD." So I'm a fan of your work. Again, no pressure, and THANK YOU!

I'm not sure if Stef is reading the forums much right now, but I can assure you he's been hard at work on Nocturne. He's even been avoiding our playtesting chat! :)

[allanfieldhouse]

Remember, 500 card expansion means 500 rectangular pieces of cardshock in the box, not 500 unique things to program.  there are 33 new kingdom cards, boons, hexes and other cards given by kingdom cards, so maybe 40 or so things to program (just my estimate).

No, you're confused. Rats was actually twice as hard to program as a typical 10-card pile.

[dane]

Are the previewed cards going to be potentially selected when using Matching to play a rated game?  Or will we have to do something else to be able to play with them?

[Ingix]

Rated games will not include Nocturne cards in the preview week. You will have to "do something else".

[horusboyd]

So how does this work? Do I have to make an unrated game and the Nocturne cards will appear randomly?

[blamelewis]

There's an option in Matching for Nocturne preview... check that box...

T.