Why I am quitting dominion

[dextrapunch]

This has been suggested and discussed many, many times. And the fact is, that this rule change would change a slight first-player advantage into a huge second player advantage. The first player could no longer ever end the game with a win; he would have to always make sure he builds up a big enough lead first, and then end the game; hoping that the second player can't catch up. Whereas the second player can continue to play normal Dominion, and win simply by ending the game while 1 or more points ahead. It would be very unfair to the first player. The object of Dominion is not to get the highest score you can (and then hope that it is higher than your opponent's score). The object is to end the game while you are in the lead.

In Citadels the one closing has 4 points more.
That could be something. The one closing gets a bonus. Then you have however another turn.
This would be less unfair.
OR
The one closing either wins or ties.
The other one, if doesn't get enough points to tie, loses.
If he goes even, or overtakes the opponent, it's a tie. That would be another solution.
This would change mecahnics, that is true, but in my opinion, for the better.
This would make me rethink about my idea to retire from dominion.

-cut-
I doubt that you made your original post in the midst of anger, so I suspect that it's an issue that you thought about for a while.  Which means that your decision to (at least temporarily) leave Dominion will not change . . . at least, for now.

Yes, you got all my points and for this I really thank you a lot.

I don't think I have to add more, but, I would like to see some game mechanics changed and that would surely be something.

[XD9]

Sorry to see you go!  However, it seems you have a classic case of selective amnesia.  We as humans tend to fixate on the times that screwed us over and become convinced that the universe is aligned against us.  The truth is we are ignoring or not giving as much credence to the times that the very thing we are complaining about worked in our favor, on other games.  It is a very common thing to occur and I catch myself doing it all the time as well!  It is difficult to not be biased when considering the things happening to you.  I recommend giving it another chance. 

[Puk]

Sorry to see you go!  However, it seems you have a classic case of selective amnesia.  We as humans tend to fixate on the times that screwed us over and become convinced that the universe is aligned against us.  The truth is we are ignoring or not giving as much credence to the times that the very thing we are complaining about worked in our favor, on other games.  It is a very common thing to occur and I catch myself doing it all the time as well!  It is difficult to not be biased when considering the things happening to you.  I recommend giving it another chance. 

I actually don't recommend giving it another chance. if you can't handle losing once in a while just because of bad luck (or winning because of good luck), don't play dominion, play chess. i think you made a perfect analysis of what you want.

[jeebus]

I've also played thousands of games, I'm usually at around level 58-60 (I've been in the top 20 two or three times). I also feel that luck plays too big of a role when both players more or less know what they're doing. And I don't even mean the same level. Since I have a high ranking, I usually play opponents lower than me. I often lose to people 10 levels lower. Sometimes they're simply not playing well at all, in which case I will usually win (but not always). But sometimes they are playing okay, not fantastic, but decently (they could even be copying my strategy), and then it will most of the time be luck that decides the game. Even making several big mistakes is usually of less importance than luck.

I've had days where I keep losing to lower ranked players more often than not, even starting to think that it might be me who's not seeing something in my game or my opponents' games that could explain it; but then get matched with a higher ranked player and beat that player.

The luck factor is just part of the basic structure of the game though. I can't see any way it could be different. You could imagine a variant stacking your deck instead of shuffling (I read that somebody had tried this), but of course it wouldn't be anything close to the same game, and would change the value of all the cards, etc. The point of Dominion is to evaluate the odds when you build your deck (although this could change in some situations where you have complete deck control, but you still have to figure out how to get there, and get there first or in the best way).

I probably won't be quitting Dominion any time soon though. But I often wish that it would happen more frequently that the player playing better wins.

[JW]

I've also played thousands of games, I'm usually at around level 58-60 (I've been on the top 20 two or three times). I also feel that luck plays too big of a role when both players more or less know what they're doing. 

...The luck factor is just part of the basic structure of the game though.

Some Kingdoms offer more opportunity to outplay your opponent than others. Over time, the probability that the best strategy on the board is complex has increased. This is due to a changing card pool: fewer terminal actions and fewer "dud" cards. Games also tend to go longer (mainly due to additional sources of VP introduced in Empires), which increases the number of decisions players need to make, and increases the chances that the person playing better will win.

[dextrapunch]

However, it seems you have a classic case of selective amnesia.  We as humans tend to fixate on the times that screwed us over and become convinced that the universe is aligned against us.

Nope. Already explained. I lose in other games, I win in other games, and that's pretty Dominion-based.
While...

I've also played thousands of games, I'm usually at around level 58-60 (I've been on the top 20 two or three times). I also feel that luck plays too big of a role when both players more or less know what they're doing

Exactly my thoughts.
It is important to have people rannked in the top 20 expressing something like that.
It's always is easy to blame someone else. More difficult is to admit the game you like has some major bugs.
That alas can't be easily fixed, too.

[dextrapunch]

I would like also to add that I plaied a lot on fextralife too, before here.
There wasn't any ladder, I lost to players who were clearly committing mistakes, but I humbly always thought that perhaps I saw as mistakes what were smart moves.

Now that I have a ladder I have a score to refere to, to help me undestrand if I am losing to an expert player or not.

[Turn turn]

I agree that luck plays its part in thus game but if you were "unlucky" for 500 games on a total of 5000 played for example, then you will have been lucky on 500 other of those 5000 games too i guess. Everybidy who plays Dominion knows that its nit onky about strategy but also about being lucky every now and then. If you cant cope with that then its a good thing you quit this game!

[mrfiat]

In real life we play with equal starting hand, equal turns, and phantom provinces.   This makes the game much more fair.   If only they supported these options on this site.  :-(   I have asked for them many times.

[yed]

In real life we play with equal starting hand, equal turns, and phantom provinces.   This makes the game much more fair.   If only they supported these options on this site.  :-(   I have asked for them many times.

That creates a different game where 3-piling is possible only for last player. It must be a lot less fun and I don't think it is more fair.

[nzhugsnz]

Interesting conversation. I'm perplexed as to the need to go on an on about proving a point. If you've decided you don't like it for whatever reason, feel free to give your opinion, then just go live your life doing something else - life is too short to do things you don't like :)

While some of the points are entirely valid on all sides of the lively discussion, I find the most interesting thing to do as a second player when I think that there is basically only one good strategy to play and the first player has the advantage because of it (and will win more often than not), is to play around with different combos and buys and try things to learn new things. Less interesting when only playing the base game, but all the ridiculous numbers of cards brings so many combos, that even when I'm losing, I'm generally having fun, hence why I play. (Other than when I'm being abused, funnily enough, normally by people that think this game has too much of a luck component!)

Just find the things that bring you joy, and do those! Easy. Happy playing all :)

[rickertt]

I am sorry, but I am not only a Dominion player.

I was ranked in the Chess rankings in my own country when I was young.
Then I've been a Magic The Gathering player for 20 years.
Then I am a RPG player weekly
Then I am a boardgame player weekly.

See, I'm not telling you that I am Top Star Dominion Number One player.
I mostly like to do combo. I don't even aim to win every game.

But when I am playing Risk I know I am not playing Puerto Rico, to say one, and I know that dice will have a preponderant role, or picking the right cards to exchange for tanks.

I'm not saying that Domionion is based on luck, again, as Risk is mostly based on luck with a minor touch of skill.

I'm saying that, and you can admit this without any shame, when two players are equally skilled, a game can last 3 rounds if one gets the right cards and the other the worst ones.

After talking with you it is obvious that this is perfectly fitting your likeliness to play a game.
In my case, it goes to fill an empty can of patience that today had its last drip.

You can have fun how much you want, but as much as you can say to me "you do not understand how dominion works because you are a low-level player and you're blaming your luck when you should blame your skill" (which is not the case but you are free to express your opinion) I can also say "You may have this feeling, but having been a player of many different games in 30 years I can tell you that luck in Dominion play a main role in a game. Not the biggest one, but not to underestimate either"

Who's right and who's wrong?
Probably neither.
You will think that Dominion is based on pure strategy, I will think that it's a mix, we both are entitled to our opinion, and I quit because it's getting annoying (playing, not talking to you).

I don't understand at all your feelings about luck in light of you being a Magic player. There is more luck in Magic than in Dominion. Ever heard of mana flood or mana screw? Not only do those conditions prevent you from winning, they effectively keep you from enjoying playing the game.

[DanielVanciae]

I need to quit because I'm too stupid to win or even to learn from losing; all my games do is depress me without teaching me anything (again, not because most players don't have a lot to teach me; I'm just incapable of learning).  And before you make the obvious suggestion, I'm not brave enough to do that, and it would probably be an even worse example for my kids than I pose by existing.

[IceHot]

I also feel that luck plays too big of a role when both players more or less know what they're doing.

I think you too have missed the point of Dominion.

The biggest element of luck happens in every game.  It is what one or two cards are on the bottom of your deck at the turn.  Sure good players can overcome this, but part of the game is risk management.  So luck is essential to the game.  Buying two terminal cards on your first two buys is risky.  You should loose because of this risk and you should get lucky when taking the risk.

But "luck" or lack there of is over-represented when handing out a grade for Dominion....

The prime component of the game is the speed of the game in proportion to the fun factor it offers.  So you lose/win on the luck of a draw - shuffle up and play again!  That is the whole point of the game.

The are other great games to be played like Dominant Species (by Chad Jensen) but those games dont play in a time format to shuffle up and play again.

So if the Strategy/Risk/Luck/Shuffle-Up-Play-Again combination doesnt scratch your itch find another game that does.  There are plenty of great games out there.  Dominion ranks among the best of all games because of the fun-time quotient, and by design is the best of class in deck builders.

[IceHot]

I need to quit because I'm too stupid to win or even to learn from losing; all my games do is depress me without teaching me anything (again, not because most players don't have a lot to teach me; I'm just incapable of learning).  And before you make the obvious suggestion, I'm not brave enough to do that, and it would probably be an even worse example for my kids than I pose by existing.

Is this a sincere post...internet sarcasm escapes me?