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Messages - JW

#61
Feature Requests / Re: Update wording of Black Market
25 September 2017, 07:21:35 AM
Quote from: josh bornstein on 25 September 2017, 06:12:42 AM
Quote from: -Stef- on 25 November 2016, 02:25:58 PM
These are the rules for the Black Market deck we'll use on January 1st:
* * *
   -> You'll never find tournament, young witch, hermit, urchin, page, peasant, baker, trade route or pirate ship.
   -> Only when the kingdom already has (potions, spoils, ruins), you might find those cards in the deck.
   -> Cards that require extra mats (island, native village) are allowed in the deck.

How odd.  What is the reason for excluding these particular cards?  I am assuming that each of these 9 is, for various reasons, difficult to code in, yes?  Or is there a less technical reason for this decision?

You can't see the contents of the Black Market before the game begins in the online implementation (which I think is a great choice, because it makes the card simpler to use, particularly for newer players).  Therefore, cards that would change the initial setup of the game shouldn't be included. For example, Young Witch being in the Black Market would require adding a bane card to the kingdom from the beginning, but then you'd know that Young Witch was in the Black Market. It also keeps kingdoms from having overly complex setup (needing to add Potions because there's a Potion card in the Black Market, Ruins because Marauder is in the Black Market, etc.), which I applaud.

Cards that gain other cards that aren't in the supply (e.g., Urchin / Mercenary) are a harder call, as you could just reveal Mercenaries when Urchin is gained, but that choice seems reasonable (and avoids confusion with how the Peasant/Page lines work out of the Black Market).

The choice to exclude Pirate Ship doesn't look justified, given the inclusion of Island, but it's a small problem in the scheme of things.

Quote from: Chris is me on 28 November 2016, 08:09:39 PM
I've said it elsewhere, but including Island but not including Pirate Ship seems super inconsistent. Island requires an extra mat, but only once you buy and play it, just like Pirate Ship does. They either both need to be removed or both included - any rationalization of just one is probably influenced by people liking Island more than Pirate Ship.

Just hide the PS counter until you buy it, the same way the Island mat is hidden. I don't see why there is a difference. I also don't see why people should have visible PS counters before they play the card for the first time even in regular games.
#62
Feature Requests / Re: Update wording of Black Market
25 September 2017, 05:05:39 AM
Quote from: werothegreat on 25 September 2017, 04:45:19 AM
That looks more like a bug with the reshuffling than confusion over the deck shuffling.

You're right. Here's a better example: http://forum.shuffleit.nl/index.php?topic=684.msg1620#msg1620. I've updated the original post.
#63
Feature Requests / Update wording of Black Market
24 September 2017, 08:36:52 PM
Black Market can be confusing because the online implementation does not match the wording on the card. Ideally the text of Black Market would be updated to reflect the current functionality. The key items to change seem to be for the card text to indicate that you don't get to choose the order of the cards put back, and that it is shuffled after each cycle.

This mismatch has caused confusion for some people (here's one example).

Quote from: -Stef- on 25 November 2016, 02:25:58 PM
These are the rules for the Black Market deck we'll use on January 1st:
- the deck has 60 random cards you own.
- after every cycle it gets shuffled.
- the decks contents are unknown at the start of the game
- there won't be anything in the deck that would require additional setup.
   -> You'll never find tournament, young witch, hermit, urchin, page, peasant, baker, trade route or pirate ship.
   -> Only when the kingdom already has (potions, spoils, ruins), you might find those cards in the deck.
   -> Cards that require extra mats (island, native village) are allowed in the deck.
#64
How to Play / Re: Dominion Online Official FAQ
24 September 2017, 08:33:13 PM
Black Market can be confusing because the online implementation does not match the wording on the card. Ideally the text of Black Market would be updated to reflect the current functionality.

In the meantime, it would be helpful to add description of how Black Market works to this FAQ.

Q. Why can't I choose the order of cards that I put back in the Black Market deck?

A. In a rule change for online play, Black Market doesn't allow you to choose the order you put cards back in and is shuffled each time after every card in it has been seen, and you can't see the Black Market deck before the game begins. Also note that the Black Market always begins the game with 60 cards, and it won't contain any cards that would alter the kingdom setup.

The following post describing new rules http://forum.shuffleit.nl/index.php?topic=1226.0 should also be updated to add the bolded text: Black Market doesn't allow you to choose the order you put cards back in and is shuffled each time after every card in it has been seen, and you can't see the Black Market deck before the game begins

Quote from: -Stef- on 25 November 2016, 02:25:58 PM
These are the rules for the Black Market deck we'll use on January 1st:
- the deck has 60 random cards you own.
- after every cycle it gets shuffled.
- the decks contents are unknown at the start of the game
- there won't be anything in the deck that would require additional setup.
   -> You'll never find tournament, young witch, hermit, urchin, page, peasant, baker, trade route or pirate ship.
   -> Only when the kingdom already has (potions, spoils, ruins), you might find those cards in the deck.
   -> Cards that require extra mats (island, native village) are allowed in the deck.
#65
How to Play / Re: Welcome to Dominion Online!
24 September 2017, 05:29:32 PM
As evidenced by http://forum.shuffleit.nl/index.php?topic=2277.msg9288#msg9288, some well meaning people may not know that if you close your browser tab, that doesn't count as a resignation but just a disconnection- and that the game will wait multiple minutes before giving your opponent the option to force you to resign. This is worth mentioning in the discussion of the "Resign" option.

It would also be good to link to the Dominion Strategy blog's "New to Dominion" page (https://dominionstrategy.com/new-to-dominion/), either here or (perhaps more likely) in the FAQ.
#66
Feature Requests / Re: Request: Copper subscription
24 September 2017, 04:48:59 AM
Unfortunately, Stef, the developer, says that there won't be a cheaper subscription option than the current Silver package. The linked thread has further interesting discussion on these topics.

As I see it, Stef is missing that he already lets people without any subscription play as much as they want, and there's a resource cost to them as well. The Copper subscription would just be another way to draw players in and expose them to the game, while getting some revenue from people who aren't ready for the full Silver subscription experience. But it's his decision to make.

Quote from: Stef on 21 September 2017, 10:28:30 AM
8. There won't be any cheaper subscription models. That's just an economical argument - Silver and Gold are already so cheap that almost nobody will reject it because of the amount. If people don't subscribe it's because they just don't want to pay for various reasons. And people playing with less cards aren't actually cheaper to support for me then people playing with all cards (assuming those cards get implemented anyway).

#67
Support / Re: Getting matched
24 September 2017, 02:08:57 AM
Quote from: grackel13 on 22 September 2017, 03:58:39 AM
I'll use my original username, the one with Silver subscription, to play games with friends, to create tables, and (eventually) to get matched with rated games. Tbh, I didn't even see before the "practice" option, though now that I do ... it seems very few people want it.

What I would love is the ability to turn off and on certain expansions that I've bought via my Silver subscription. I think that would enhance learning and allow for the steep jump from Base to the many expansions Silver encompasses.

Not to belabor the point too much, but one reason that a Copper subscription would be particularly useful for new players who prefer a more gradual introduction to the game is that it wouldn't require any new interface or knowledge on the part of players. It would just be a third option in an existing screen (the store). As this example shows, some features (in this case practice games, and the options they provide) can be lost on players new to the system.

As I see it, Stef isn't accounting for the fact that he already lets people without any subscription play as much as they want, and there's a resource cost to them as well. The Copper subscription would be another way to draw players in and expose them to the game, while getting some revenue from people who aren't ready for the full Silver subscription experience. But it's his decision to make.
#68
How to Play / Re: Dominion Online Official FAQ
22 September 2017, 04:07:32 AM
This is great. It should be the main stickied version, and Chris's unofficial FAQ should be un-stickied. Can you add what browsers are supported?

Quote from: werothegreat on 22 September 2017, 03:48:54 AM
How can I see what cards I have on mats, or Duration cards played last turn?

This text should be bolded.

Also, if the thread for this is locked, I will not mind this comment being moved to a "comments" thread. :-)
#69
How to Play / Re: Welcome to Dominion Online!
22 September 2017, 04:06:26 AM
Great! This should be stickied.

Quote from: werothegreat on 22 September 2017, 03:37:37 AM
  • FAQ: This option will take you to this page.

"FAQ" presumably should go to the separate "FAQ" page.

But there should be a "New to Dominion Online" option that goes here as well.

Also, if the thread for this is locked, I will not mind this comment being moved to a "comments" thread. :-)
#70
Support / Re: Getting matched
21 September 2017, 05:10:01 PM
Quote from: Stef on 21 September 2017, 10:28:30 AM
4. @JW the problem can't be solved by making the games part of the rated matching. Yes rated matching is more popular, but that is because more people want to play with all the cards they can get their hands on. Making "practice game matching" somehow part of "rated matching with special options" would just compartmentalize the player pool in a way that is less explicit, but it wouldn't magically allow a match between a player that wants to play with everything and a player that wants to play with 1 or 2 sets.

I may have been unclear, but my intent was that a player can "deactivate" some of the sets that they have purchased, so that they can, for example, still play rated games as if they only subscribed to the base set, or Base + Intrigue, even if they have a Silver subscription. 

I assume that at lower ranking levels, a substantial percentage of games are played by players who have not subscribed to any cards. And the majority of those players presumably do not use the "wait until an opponent with a subscription is available" feature (because they don't like long wait times). So a substantial percentage of games among lower-rated players feature only cards from the base set. If someone who is a lower-ranked, new player only wants to play with the base set, Intrigue, and Seaside, most of their would-be opponents without subscriptions would prefer that match to no match. But it gives the person who subscribes more flexibility in choosing which cards their rated games will contain. 

I had a separate and different proposal, in a thread that's now locked, that players who have not subscribed to any cards should be able to avoid games against someone who has subscribed to all cards, for example. That specific example shouldn't split the player base much because people with subscriptions to all cards are more desirable matches for more experienced opponents.

In combination with the hypothetical "pretend I haven't subscribed to expansions" feature it could set up a scenario when two players with Silver subscriptions are incompatible because one doesn't want to play with Hinterlands, and the other one does. But in general I would expect the combination of "pretend I haven't subscribed to expansions" and "don't match against people with (too many) more cards" just to be used by players who are new to the game, to ease learning the cards. Dominion is a good enough game that people who know the cards tend to prefer full random games to waiting for that one opponent who dislikes Alchemy with an equal fervor.

Quote7. We could add some concept of "pretend you don't have subscribed to certain expansions you actually subscribed to". I doubt it would be very popular, but maybe I'm wrong there.

8. There won't be any cheaper subscription models. That's just an economical argument - Silver and Gold are already so cheap that almost nobody will reject it because of the amount. If people don't subscribe it's because they just don't want to pay for various reasons. And people playing with less cards aren't actually cheaper to support for me then people playing with all cards (assuming those cards get implemented anyway).

If you aren't going to offer a subscription smaller than Silver (with 4 large sets and 2 small sets), there will be more demand for the "pretend I'm not subscribed to expansions" feature among beginners than there would be if there were a smaller subscription.

#71
Familiar cards are not respected in rated games.  And by far the fastest way to find a game is to use auto match to find a rated game.
#72
Currently, players have the option to wait until being matched with someone who subscribes to cards. However, there is no option for new players who want to avoid being matched (for rated games) with someone who subscribes to cards, in order to avoid playing with many cards that they don't know. I'd suggest an option in matching that lets a player prefer (or require) not being matched to an opponent who is subscribed to cards that they aren't subscribed to.

An alternative or addition is to allow a player to prefer (or require) not to be matched only to an opponent who is subscribed to substantially more cards than they are, where that is defined as no more than one subscription tier higher. This would work well in conjunction with the "Copper" subscription option (to just Intrigue and Seaside) that I suggest here: http://forum.shuffleit.nl/index.php?topic=2185.msg8987#msg8987.  Then a new player who doesn't subscribe to any cards could allow matches against another player who has Intrigue and Seaside, which is an easier starting point for beginners than the current Silver subscription of Intrigue, Seaside, Prosperity, Cornucopia, Hinterlands, and Guilds.
#73
The term "practice game" seems problematic, because it may imply that the games aren't expected to be taken seriously, which reduces player interest in these unrated games. I believe that the term "unrated game" is both more accurate and avoids this negative connotation. Please consider making this switch. 
#74
Feature Requests / Request: Copper subscription
20 September 2017, 04:43:50 PM
Right now there's no subscription option that allows a new player to gradually become exposed to more cards. I eventually bought all sets on the previous Dominion Online implementation but did so gradually as a way to learn the cards, because I was new to the game. Per http://forum.shuffleit.nl/index.php?topic=708.0, the smallest subscription, Silver, adds 4 large sets and 2 small sets, which may be hard for a new player to learn at once.

I propose a Copper subscription. Subscribes to Intrigue, Seaside
costs about €1.00 /month or €12.00 /year
for Americans: that is about $1.05 / $12.25

The current options are:
Quote
Gold subscription
gives access to all current expansions
costs about €3.00 /month or €36.00 /year
for Americans: that is about $3.15 / $38.00

Silver subscription
subscribes to Intrigue, Seaside, Prosperity, Cornucopia, Hinterlands and Guilds
costs about €2.00 /month or €24.00 /year
for Americans: that is about $2.10 / $25.25

#75
Support / Re: Getting matched
20 September 2017, 04:36:01 PM
Quote from: Stef on 20 September 2017, 09:47:42 AM
I don't really understand what you want.

You still have exactly the same options as before, except now more people will want to play with you (those that require their opponents to have cards).

If you don't want to play with anything except base cards yourself, then buying a subscription to non-base cards isn't going to help you, but it won't hurt you either.

The original poster is being harmed by having bought a subscription, because they can no longer play rated games using only cards from the base set. And by far the fastest way to find a game is to use the automatch feature to find rated games.

One solution would be to refund all but the first month of the original poster's subscription, and remove the subscription. Another solution would be to allow a player to "deactivate" the cards that they have purchased, so that they can, for example, still play rated games as if they only had the base cards, but can mix in other cards when they want to.  Similarly to this poster, Burning Skull had to create a separate account called "Drowning Skull" for his great "How to Base Dominion" series (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpPtxyGNGcg) because it is much harder to get a game with only the base dominion set if you are a subscriber.

More generally, the difficulty of transitioning to games with lots of new cards for people new to Dominion suggests that there should be a subscription option less expansive than Silver - say, an option that adds only Intrigue and Seaside- to ease this difficult transition (I created a separate thread to discuss this: http://forum.shuffleit.nl/index.php?topic=2185.0).